If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Ask and answer questions about Leonard Cohen, his work, this forum and the websites!
Vicomte
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Location: Saint Malo Bretagne

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Vicomte » Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:44 pm

Do I detect that by me trying to put you straight about gypsies and the words they are often known by here in France is not taken very well by you?

I am laughing that you have to go to some book, or online info like Wiki !! :lol: to try and tell me about France and what the French call gypsies. Sorry but you can call it jazz manouche, or gyspy jazz but no idea of any other form of calling jazz by another name for a gypsy, I only know those two names, as far as jazz is concerned, the other offerings were simply a few of many actual names that gypsies are known by, not as far as jazz though....
Django was born in Belgium not in France.
Did anyone say he wasn't then? You might as well say Johnny Hallyday was not born in France but Belgium, it all adds up to making no sense on this thread :roll: Oh and I forgot to mention, he never "lost" any fingers, he had two of them badly burnt but still managed to use them in parts of is music..Oh damn, I'll get hit with Wiki again !! :lol:

Glad you don't mind but TBH I don't care what I look like and if you can't be told the facts from someone "on the ground" so to speak and preferring to believe the wiki version, then so be it, carry on being quite wrong, no skin off my nose.... 8)
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2018 and over fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
Tchocolatl
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Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Tchocolatl » Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:10 am

Frandly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

I was caring about Django and his art. But why, that can take care of itself as far as can I see.

Ah! If you are happy and laughing, laughing and happy, happy and laughing, for me it is the best of what turned out of this two-post chat. Enjoy yourself. Have fun! Try not to punch you in the face by accident too often, though, you could harm your nose in the long run.



This said : that don't make it junk. (This thread.) Hear the guitar. End of the song. Ahh. I prefer this cow-boy song to many others.

Gypsies and cow-boys, as nomads, are sharing a certain spirit. Leonard play(ed) also the card of the gypsy. The spirit is taking many forms, here. He may be a hotel, he could as well be a wild space under the moon.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Steven
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Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:32 am

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Steven » Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:43 am

Hi Tchocolatl,

There are a number of things about Billy Joe Shaver that are amazing. His book, Honky Tonk Hero, is
outstanding and tells some of his life's story. He's been getting the job done for decades, despite having
faced a number of circumstances, some of which could have put nearly anyone else permanently down
for the count. I own a copy of his book and recommend it.

I'm quoting you here:
"This said : that don't make it junk. (This thread.) Hear the guitar. End of the song. Ahh. I prefer this cow-boy song to many others.

Gypsies and cow-boys, as nomads, are sharing a certain spirit. Leonard play(ed) also the card of the gypsy. The spirit is taking many forms, here. He may be a hotel, he could as well be a wild space under the moon."
Yes.

Just to add another attribute of commonality, there's a willingness to take risks. For creative people, this is
a necessity to possibly go beyond the bounds of mediocrity.

You mentioned Django Reinhardt. Willie Nelson, as you may very well know, is highly influenced/inspired by him.
Here's a link to Willie Nelson covering Django Reinhardt's "Nuages": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcB97_Hv9yk.

With your bringing up gypsy spirit, Leonard Cohen's song "The Gypsy's Wife" comes to mind. Great song it is.
I've been looking for an excuse to post a link to "Pardon Me, I've Got Somone To Kill." If the fictional story of the husband in "The Gypsy's Wife" had been carried further along in a classic outlaw country song (and, of course, if the Leonard Cohen song had preceded the classic), the story could have been something like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqWTwTj1d0U. Yeah, it's a strong song, as is "The Gypsy's Wife."
Vicomte
Posts: 844
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 1:49 am
Location: Saint Malo Bretagne

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Vicomte » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:31 pm

Tchocolatl wrote:Frandly, my dear, I don't give a damn.

I was caring about Django and his art. But why, that can take care of itself as far as can I see.

Ah! If you are happy and laughing, laughing and happy, happy and laughing, for me it is the best of what turned out of this two-post chat. Enjoy yourself. Have fun! Try not to punch you in the face by accident too often, though, you could harm your nose in the long run.



This said : that don't make it junk. (This thread.) Hear the guitar. End of the song. Ahh. I prefer this cow-boy song to many others.

Gypsies and cow-boys, as nomads, are sharing a certain spirit. Leonard play(ed) also the card of the gypsy. The spirit is taking many forms, here. He may be a hotel, he could as well be a wild space under the moon.
I wonder what it's like in your World :lol: :lol:
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2018 and over fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Tchocolatl » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:52 am

I was prompted to write : Do not feed the troll.

Than I realized how archaic this expression is, now. Noboby is using it, anymore.

Archeology of the WWW would certainly consider it as a precious artefac in the e-museum.

This is to say how old I am, now. Having witnessed the beginning of the WWW. And all.

What ever expression is in use nowadays, I won't continue to sabotage Mr. Steven's discussion. Beginning right now, I ignore this kind of attitude.

Hear the chant of the crickets.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Franks
Posts: 98
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Location: The Netherlands

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Franks » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:50 pm

Tchocolatl wrote:I was prompted to write : Do not feed the troll.

Than I realized how archaic this expression is, now. Noboby is using it, anymore.
Not as archaic as you might think.
I think this Wikipedia entry is good description on the meaning and use of the word troll in the current internet era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
Frank.
Vicomte
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Location: Saint Malo Bretagne

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Vicomte » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:20 pm

"When the seagulls follow the troller, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea. Thank you very much."
Eric Cantona

From Ken Loach's film 'Looking for Eric'
"I am not a man, I am Cantona."

Followed by the classic reply in the film from Eric Bishop.
"I'm up to here with your (Cantona's) philosophy. I'm still getting over the f*%$£&* seagulls!"

And a cricket chant just for you Tchocolatl :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtrnqL2yct8
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2018 and over fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
Steven
Posts: 2140
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:32 am

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Steven » Tue Jul 29, 2014 8:34 pm

Hi,

Nearly all Leonard Cohen aficionados can easily understand how this song may have
been an influence on Leonard Cohen's songwriting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz4QycoQCKs.
I don't know that he heard the song. More than likely he has. While "Alone and Forsaken" is on
the agenda, here's a link to Townes Van Zandt's heartfelt cover of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3jLnQkpPFk.

(The husband and wife in "The Gypsy's Wife" could have found themselves feeling alone and forsaken.)
Tchocolatl
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Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Tchocolatl » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:17 am

I knew of this ancient scripture in Wikipedia - e-museum of the WWW if there is one. Thank you Frank. It is more or less ancient Greek, so to speak, nowadays. If one takes a look on the e-culture of our time.

Somebody else told me that nowadays the term in use is "somebody doing harassment". This is not supposed to be smart. Accordingly they also are teaching to children that it will be smart to choose a behavior that does not belittle others and themselves, in real life and on line. They teach them how to communicate and live together more richly in term of emotional intelligence. Little children of 4,5 years from teenagers. They get socialized like that. I guess that we can call this evolution. There is a G-d after all. Or so do I believe. I guess that we can learn at any age what is interesting to us. Well, I think...
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Tchocolatl
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Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Tchocolatl » Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:24 am

Steven wrote:Hi,

Nearly all Leonard Cohen aficionados can easily understand how this song may have
been an influence on Leonard Cohen's songwriting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dz4QycoQCKs.
I don't know that he heard the song. More than likely he has. While "Alone and Forsaken" is on
the agenda, here's a link to Townes Van Zandt's heartfelt cover of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3jLnQkpPFk.

(The husband and wife in "The Gypsy's Wife" could have found themselves feeling alone and forsaken.)
At least the husband. The wife seems to have more companies than one can satisfied. Qui trop embrasse mal étreint.

More than likely he heard it. It seems an influence to me, anyway. Knowing his interest in country music in the beginning.

This is so interesting!! :D

Thanks for this Steven, I'll listen the cover!
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3805
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Tchocolatl » Thu Jul 31, 2014 5:33 am

I prefer by far the sicklike and meager Hank Williams. So much intensity in the eyes. It may be the incessant suffering. And the will to live and sing and, I don't know, but he has charismatic, magnetic eyes and energy, an inner beauty that radiates all over him and around.

Hank Williams was such a big star when Leonard Cohen was a kid and interested in music I can't doubt now about the influence he may have on him.

I understand much better the lines about him in Tower of Song. Hank Williams died during a tour, going in a certain city by car as the plane could not fly because of a ice storm (those ice storms are the nastiest nightmare one can dream of), the last sounds he may have done before dying is caughing.

Also, Leonard Cohen would have said (I need to find the exact source) that he put Hank Williams a hundred above him (in the song), because he considers him above him as a songwriter. As a star also probably, at this time. He was prolific, indeed.

We can not compare because times are so different. But in term of stardom Leonard Cohen

Artists always influence each other. This is normal. The industry and the copyrigths crooked the natural process of artist, and this is too bad, as it is the originality of the influence that counts.

Also, I have to find the reference but it was said about country music that it is comforting and that there will never be enough comforting in the world as it is.

Leonard Cohen songs are comforting. I know this is a sophism to say that therefore, they are country songs. But Ey!
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
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lizzytysh
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Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby lizzytysh » Thu Jul 31, 2014 2:41 pm

As soon as I have the fair amount of time needed, I'm going to listen to Hanks' song. Have been enjoying very much reading your very instructive, productive, and interesting discussion, Steven and Tchocolatl. You two have saddled that ol' country cowboy horse, taken the reins, and taken us on a galloping, refreshing ride. Love it when people take a thread and develop it like this... it creates those spots to find each time... thanks 8) . See you later and will comment further down the line [maybe three weeks] after I've listened.

The best to both of you,
Lizzie
"Be yourself. Everyone else is already taken."
~ Oscar Wilde
Steven
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Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Steven » Thu Jul 31, 2014 8:37 pm

Hi,

Picking up on one thing in Tchocolatl's last post, "comfort," yes, a notable amount of country music provides that as does the Leonard Cohen song catalog (to a larger degree). The comfort commonality stems from artistic guts, the willingness to address stuff in the songwriting process that today's hitmakers largely don't care to take on, and, truthfully, many don't have what it takes to get the job done on that level. I've got to let this thread rest for now. Carry on if you like.
Tchocolatl
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Re: If Leonard Cohen Were A Country Artist

Postby Tchocolatl » Sat Aug 02, 2014 7:27 am

I have to thank you Steven for all the information you provide in regard of country music. I need to collect such information right now and you opened some paths to me and you make the process more easy and really agreable. Here and I have a look also in Kush's section too (I did not left any comment there, though).

Also, during all the years that I listened to Tour of Song, I had in mind that it was Hank Williams who was caughing all night long, but just lately I realized that it was Leonard Cohen who was "hearing him" caughing all night long. Once you know about Hank Williams, the way he died, it makes the lines, well, that hurts, really hurts.

Now I must not stick around here too much either. Now. Time flies.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers

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