GEORGE W. BUSH

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tom.d.stiller
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Post by tom.d.stiller » Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:45 pm

Sorry, Midnight...

that's nonsense. And probably insulting to many good people who post to this site.

The trouble with religious fundamentalists (as opposed to religious people) is that they create a Satan out of everyone who dares criticize fundamentalism. In this there isn't the slightest difference between islamists and reborn Christians.

I'm not bashing Christians. I'm not bashing Muslims either. I'm saying that all fundamentalisms are fundamentally wrong (including the one that could be read into this statement).

I deeply respect religious people who are able to tolerate others. I criticize those who don't.

And I disrespect those who lead America to shame. And that's exactly what the Bush clan does. In the long run most people will realize that. But for now: the dark ages...

Tom

PS: This is not attacking you. But a bit of criticism might be allowed, though.
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Post by bee » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:32 pm

In this there isn't the slightest difference between islamists and reborn Christians[/quote
Oh really Tom, there isn't? :roll:
How many Christian fundamendalists you've seen lately slaughtering little children in schools, blowing up busses with innocent people? Are the Christian Fundamentalists requesting for women to wear burka's, have you seen them chopping off hands to thieves, shouting out loud - God is great- every time the've killed somebody? How many christian fundamentalists you've see lately kidnapping people and cutting their heads off? They do go to Church, perhaps, more often then I and you do, they pray loud at the meetings, they hate abortions, they think that bad and evil things come from satan- so what harm does it do to you or anyone else? Unless of course~ you'd like to think, that they have no right to think and do that and it's all wrong].
But for now: the dark ages... [/quote
The dark ages? where? here in USA? or elswhere? Perhaps you would prefer to live some time in Saudi Arabia or Iran etc. What do you know about dark ages, or about enlightenment? Perhaps you have a vision where the world stands now? I dont think so :x
bee
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tom.d.stiller
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Post by tom.d.stiller » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:27 pm

Oh bee!

Please rethink your misleading quote:
If you only had read, you'd have realized that I never denied any differences. "In this": " that they create a Satan out of everyone who dares criticize fundamentalism".

And how do you relate to all the children killed in a war that keeps going on no matter what the liar said, that keeps killing people you'd love to ignore? In a revival of medieval crusades? They are mastered by Christian fundamentalists that - I agree - visit churches more often than "you and I" might do.

My vision of a world? A peaceful one. My impression of where Bush and his friends are leading the world? The dark ages, yes.

But I'm not on a crusade. I'm simply opposing one.

Tom
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:54 pm

bee, a quickie about 'your' fundamentalists issues. In Bosnia and Kosovo, christians were doing all of those terrible things, you posted above, to non-christians. Try and stand back from your viewpoint and see a much bigger picture, please.

I think the fact, that just under 80 percent of Americans, (white, black, brown, hispanic, christian, jew, muslim, etc., etc.) do NOT have a passport, says a lot about their 'perceptions' of the rest of the world.

You cannot learn about other cultures from your TV screen or US mass media. You are tarring all who are not in agreement with you with a very broad brush.

Don't you remember the words of advice given to GWB when he first became President? If you don't do Foreign Policy, it'll do you!

He had to embark on a massive learning curve and he's still got a long way to go.

GWB isn't G-d, but the way some people follow his every word, makes me think that a few believe he is. He's human and fallible. He isn't perfect and neither are you or I.

bee, terrible things are happening in the world. I agree. But they are being committed by all sides. That is what happens in war.

If you cannot accept this fact, or cannot agree with other contributers, you really must do some research on your computer, by Googling through the English language newspapers from all over the world.

Best regards. In all honesty.
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Post by jurica » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:33 pm

i've seen very well what Christians can do to each other and non-Christians. it would take long to explain all the political issues of ex-Yu war, but you should know that in communism Christianity was supposedly banned (though i went to church and hever had any problems), and after the war, all the evil sadists started to go to church, and all of the sudden, churches were a place where you disscuss how we should kill all the Serbs and blow up their houses. a priest in my church said at the mass that all the good Christian will vote Tudman (nationalist) at the elections. it was enough to me never to step into any church again.

and Americans are killing innocent children daily (you do watch the news from Iraq, don't you, every now and then they kill a dozen of people for whome they have no proof of being a part of any 'evil' organization), so i don't see your point. we can discuss if that's for the better cause (i don't belive that, but i can understand that you do), but the fact is the fact, and that is the fact.

and tom... where have you been? nice to have you back.
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Post by Charles » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:57 am

I never thought I would say this but I have decided to leave the forum. I have no hard feelings about anyone and wish all the best. As everyone knows I am against the war but I do get tired of the American bashing. Thread after Thread of it. So Good Luck to everyone here.
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Post by jeannieb » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:20 am

I AM a fan of the Christ, and I am ashamed by what passes as Christianity these days. :?:

Who do you think Jesus would be hanging out with if he were here on earth?
"...and for something like a second, I was cured, and my heart was at ease."
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Post by jeannieb » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:25 am

And Charles,I love America. I want America to live up to her dreams.

If you never have dissention and discourse, how do you do this?

American was founded on these princples. Would you have us abandon them?

Would you have us walk unquestionably into a foray that has divided our beloved country?

We must must must learn ot listen to each other. Please do not leave.
"...and for something like a second, I was cured, and my heart was at ease."
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Post by bee » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:51 am

Dear Charles, do not leave :cry: The american bashing goes on, because they have the Apostle- Michael Moore- the Apostle of lies and deceit. he is so close to the Father of all lies- it is scary. And he will deceive many, so many who have lost the very sense of truth, who are taken by sweet and soothing words. they are mislead to believe- that to fight for your believes and truth is bad, one has to give it all up for "peace". Charles- the point is- to be strong and to stand where you are- no matter what. Even if you are the last man or a woman and the whole gang is surrounding you- be there.
Now it is something like a full circle- it was 1905 when the first russian revolution happened- the new ideas and hopes, many ideals- high and bright, however- all of it was based on simple materialism. the perception was such- as soon as you disburse the wealth evenly- everything is going to be ok and there is going to be happiness for ever and ever. Than the business of revolution got more and more serious and dangerous. By the middle of that century- there where so many victims and casualties of that very "golden dream" that the rivers were running blood- instead of water. The Apostles of deceit were so famous all over the world. The followers thought of themselves as something so progressive and daring, so liberated- they were singing the song- "we are going to build a new world"- not knowing that they all are going to be the chaw in the monsters mouth. This is a new century now- soon to be 2005. The weakened monster was down, but he has his Apostles at works, he is going to wake up soon. And the rivers of blood of the very followers will be running again. The people who were presenting Michael Moore with the award in Europe- they will fall from the hands of the people they are standing for now. It is very real and the terror in Europe has already started. It is just the begining. The tragedy is in the fact- that with the enlightenment, education, compassion, all the best qualities in humankind- also comes the weakness, indicisiveness, laziness, It comes to mind- why Attilla the Hunn was able to attack the Rome? Why not, he did not have too many points to ponder about, like poor Hamlet- to be or not to be. Just~ to be.
Charles, don't leave because so many people have things to say, they don't even understand. Most of them are well cultivated and spoiled and nurtured people, who have never seen the gates of hell.
Stay here, still there is something very grand among us- the dear Leonardo. :D
Love,
bee
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Post by bee » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:54 am

Jeannieb- could you be more specific, please? what about Muhamed? where do you think he would be hanging out and with whom?
bee
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Post by Stranger » Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:36 am

I think that Mohamed and Jesus would hang out together; and deploring the misery that is committed in their names (or rather in their spirit).
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Teratogen
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Post by Teratogen » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:38 am

AHAHAHA, stranger, that's a good one.

TOM STILLER, you are the MAN! hahaha. thank you for adding to my thread. we appreciate your input greatly. :D

and midnight, sweet midnight...
how bitter can midnight be? not sweet enough for thee
apparently

why is it that you conservatives are so mad and angry and bitter all the time when you already control the white house, the senate, the house of representatives, the supreme court, wall street, all of talk radio, and three of the four cable news channels? you got your war! you got your tax cut! and your commander in chief was actually elected this time, by just a tad over half of america! you’d think you’d be happy, but you’re not!

and i'll quote any over-the-hill rock star i fucking wish to! leonard cohen is older than david bowie. you wanna bitch at people for quoting leonard? and how about this one:


KEEP ON ROCKIN' IN THE FREE WORLD!!!
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tom.d.stiller
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Post by tom.d.stiller » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:04 am

Teratogen,
please don't count me on the side of those who want to "STAB". Had I joined this thread (you started it, you don't own it!) earlier, I'd have immediately dispproved of some of your remarks.

I can understand your anger, but don't let your anger lead you into the same trap of hate and revenge the Bush Warriors are in.

Let Gods be wrathful. But neither you, nor this temporary inhabitant of a well known house on Pennsylvania Avenue, are among them.

Look at this affair studiously and without anger.

Jurica,
thank you for your kind "welcome back" words. :D I've been much too busy to even think of posting to any forum. When you're away from home to get paid about 16 hours a day, you don't feel like writing articles or joining discussions. You're happy to be where you are, with your family, and you're in need of some sleep.

Hopefully the job will now stay less demanding.

Tom (still the Stiller variety)
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Post by tomsakic » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:35 am

Ignore it Charles, don't read it.
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Post by Jonnie Falafel » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:47 pm

Well Bee's right in one way - Fundamentalism is now mainstream in Islam and the appalling things she describes have certainly happened in Islamic countries around the world. Literalism is the problem you see.... those who see their holy text (The Bible, The Q'ran etc.) as the literal truth, as God's word and then claim there can be no debate and no dissent. Now Bee, you gotta admit that this is also a growing trend amongst US Christians - especially the "born-again" brand. And the really alarming thing is that Christian fundamentalist nostrums inform Bush's policy making and we're getting a blurring of the boundaries between church and state. This is embodied in Bushs' "faith based programmes" which he wants to see running through all public life. Doesn't the spirit of this seem like a violation of your constitution. I won't mention Guantanemo Bay in relation to the constitution!!

Bee, Cristian fundamentalists do nasty stuff within your own borders. A couple of things that spring to mind are the killing of abortion doctors - because life is sacred(!!) and Anita Bryants 'Kill a queer for Christ' campaign.
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