GEORGE W. BUSH

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Teratogen
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Post by Teratogen » Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:14 am

also, midnight, do you ever get upset, then go out to have a good time, and come back still upset? when you get angry are you always bitter forever? well, maybe so. i guess you can never have any fun. you've always got something rotten up your ass when you're here.
jurica
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Post by jurica » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:06 pm

midnight, there some basic concepts of democracy i don't like, but mostly, if i belived democracy can exist, i'd support it.

i've already explained why i think there's no democracy. here's some more by Slavoj Zizek (a psychoanalist and a communist, but a smart man anyway):
This strategic suspension of democracy is reaching new heights today. The US were putting tremendous pressure on Turkey where, according to opinion polls, 94% of the people are opposed to allowing the US troops' presence for the war against Iraq - where is democracy here?
When politicians start to directly justify their decisions in ethical terms, one can be sure that ethics is mobilized to cover up some dark, threatening prospects. It is the very inflation of abstract ethical rhetoric in George W. Bush's recent public statements (of the "Does the world have the courage to act against Evil or not?" type) which manifests the utter ETHICAL misery of the U.S. position - the function of ethical reference is here purely mystifying, merely serving to mask the true political stakes (which are not difficult to discern). In order to trace these stakes, recall how the geopolitic hardliners like to compare today's situation of the US to that of a patient on dialysis: the US ªway of life´ in all its aspects, including the ideological ones, crucially depends on the availability of a certain minimal amount of the oil supply, only one third of which can be provided by the US themselves. The US are thus like a patient on dialysis whose survival depends on the influx of oil mostly controlled by the Muslim population which is antagonistic to the US values and might - in short, a patient whose dialysis machine is controlled by a crazy doctor who hates the patient... The only way to avoid the permanent threat is to directly take control of the key oil suppliers in the Middle East. The gradual limitation of democracy is clearly perceptible in the attempts to "rethink" the present situation - one is, of course, for democracy and human rights, but one should "rethink" them, and a series of recent interventions in the public debate give a clear sense of the direction of this "rethinking." In The Future of Freedom, Fareed Zakaria, Bush's favored columnist, locates the threat to freedom in "overdoing democracy," i.e., in the rise of "illiberal democracy at home and abroad" (the books subtitle). He draws the lesson that democracy can only "catch on" in economically developed countries: if the developing countries are "prematurely democratized," the result is a populism which ends in economic catastrophe and political despotism - no wonder that today's economically most successful Third World countries (Taiwan, South Korea, Chile) embraced full democracy only after a period of authoritarian rule. The immediate lessons for Iraq is clear and unambiguous: yes, the US should bring democracy to Iraq, but not impose it immediately - there should first be a period of five or so years in which a benevolently-authoritarian US dominated regime would create proper conditions for the effective functioning of democracy... We know now what bringing democracy means: it means that the US and its "willing partners" impose themselves as the ultimate judges who decide if a country is ripe for democracy.
find more in Google if you like.

funny thing is that he was also asked the same question:
Zizek, tell me, then, what is the alternative?
What is the alternative to democracy? market economy?
All of your critical comments are interesting but remains empty until you present something concrete as an alternative.
well, here's what i think:
there's a sort of a new communist idea called Parecon. i'd include some of their economical ideas, but would not insist on getting payed on account of working time rather than effect. i think it would be far less productive. in other ways, the guys have some good points.
so, i'd be a sort of a socialist in economical way.
when it comes to civil rights, i'd be the opposite: liberal all the way. drugs - fine, prostituion - fine, homosexuals - fine, abortion - fine. in a sane and healthy sociaty (it would take time to build one, but i firmly belive that it is possible) you wouldn't need law to make people stop doing things that are harmful to themselves. there are a lot of social studies that prove that more repression results in more inner agression which leads to drug abuse and simillar.
murrders and thefts are completely different issue. i'd be very (and that is corporal) strict to those people. you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't directly hurt the other people.
when it comes to state security, i'd follow an old communist Jugoslav saying: 'others' we don't want, ours' we dont give'. US are not under attack for no reason. neither were Spain etc. i wouldn't touch nobody's inner issues.

sometimes it's not that simple, and would require specific approach to specific subjects...

once again: i'm not an expert, and this may have been a load of garbage, but once we stop beliving in Utopias, the history will realy end. stop. there'll be no more improvements. i wouln't like that, i must say.
BarbaraJean
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Our nation is in mourning and wearing black..

Post by BarbaraJean » Tue Nov 09, 2004 12:28 pm

If there is any good to come out of this election, GW is not going to be able to BS with the world knowing what a jerk he really is.. I take comfort in believing that time will take care of the jerk.. What goes around will come back to bite him in the ass..keep this in mind as we look forwarsd to the day that he is impeached..or worse.. He is the most hated man on earth and will pay for his war crimes..

Please don't waste you energy with rage or revenge. Our day for celebration will come.... BJ
Hello Friends of Leonard,
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Post by lizzytysh » Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:14 pm

Hello and Welcome to you, Barbara ~

I awoke this morning to NPR's Ann Garrells[sp?] reporting on the invasion of Fallujah from an imbedded-reporter position with a Marine supply unit. These units, of course, are high targets, due to their function. 'Hers' is about to enter the city, itself, whereas until now, they had been going back and forth from the outside. [I've just heard another female reporter, from NPR, who's there, as well. There are reports of women and children ~ unable to leave ~ who are in the streets, firing on the invading troops.]

The descriptions of battle that I'm hearing seem particularly gruesome and the predictabilities of action don't bode well for either side. 10,000 troops are going in. Those already there were igniting bright red[?] and white flares to blind the soldiers with their night glasses. I feel terribly sad for the troops participating in this. I feel terribly sad for the innocents who were not able to leave. I feel terribly sad for everyone. I feel terribly sad. I awoke feeling, "Yes, this really is like living in a nightmare, and I'm not even there." I can't bring my myself to political 'rhetoric' ~ this is so long and so many lives since the photo-op landing in the middle of the ocean claiming "Victory!" We are about to experience more high numbers of lost lives, in addition to more high numbers of lost lives of Iraqi, innocent citizens ~ lives that don't even get counted anymore by the U.S.

On the Ivory Coast of Africa, we also have 9 French peacekeepers, and one American aid worker killed. The French apparently took revenge on the airports, which is resulted in revenge on French citizens living in that area. These deaths are so minimal in number to all those that have been occurring right along amongst those of the refugees; those trying to flee to save their lives; and those who weren't able, and lost theirs by staying.

Welcome, anyway.

~ Elizabeth
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Post by bee » Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:46 am

..keep this in mind as we look forwarsd to the day that he is impeached..or worse.. He is the most hated man on earth and will pay for his war crimes..
Oh, really- the most hated man? hated by terorists? that's for sure. Who else would hate him as much? you Barbara? May I ask why? what are the wrongs he's done to you? Have you lost your family? Have you lost your property or country? I suspect, perhaps you've lost your job, but that could happen under any president! :o Get real, Bush is respected and loved by millions, he is not the most hated man, may be in your dreams and raging hatred, may be a shrink can help you out :roll:
Take care of your health
bee
jurica
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Re: Our nation is in mourning and wearing black..

Post by jurica » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:26 am

BarbaraJean wrote:Please don't waste you energy with rage or revenge. Our day for celebration will come.... BJ
that's a lot like holding out a red flag for bee :-)))))
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Post by bee » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:09 pm

Jurica- childish bragging , irrational thoughts and fist waving after the battle's been lost ` it's been well known behavior. Good therapist might be at help there. Red flags for everybody who can observe that~as for me, I really don't care much about it.
bee
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Teratogen
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Post by Teratogen » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:58 pm

:roll: bee, i SERIOUSLY doubt he is loved and respected by millions. sure, millions voted for him... but i bet a lot of those people just voted for him either because they didn't know what they were doing or that for some reason they thought he was just better than kerry. besides, supposedly the thing going around is that he won on a "moral" basis, that he represents morality. in some fucked up twilight zone is where these people must be coming from, because it's tremendously contradictory to believe that bush has ANY moral center to his rotten ways. and i bet those who voted against him DO actually hate him. and around the world i wouldn't expect very many people to like him much either.

don't patronize barbara with your condescending rhetoric. even if she did not lose her family or job or property, why should she stand there and let it happen to everyone else who IS experiencing these things? why should I stand there and let it happen? you can stand all alone if you want to, but don't expect any of us to lend a hand in your time of need. get a fuckin' clue, bee.
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Post by Nan » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:09 am

Jason please don't postulate your lending a hand in someone's time of need. Not with your "I want to take a STAB at them" ravings. It doesn't work. You are still full of hate.
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Post by Linda » Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:20 am

What a bunch of Michael Morons. There is a cure for Moronitis, think for yourself :lol:
Linda
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Teratogen
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Post by Teratogen » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:34 am

IT WAS A FUCKING JOKE FOR THE NTH TIME! god... you fucking cling on to something i said that has no serious pretense and try to throw it at me like it makes me look bad or something.

and linda, thanks for the suggestion, but who's to say that because he or i or anybody else on this side have SIMILAR ideas and thoughts and beliefs that WE ALL pick it up from him? and where do you get your ideas??? jesus? HA! :lol:
Midnight
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Post by Midnight » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:18 pm

Jurica...thanks for the response. I wil have to look into this guy's thinking. But I think it's probably more soft-soap communism.
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Post by Midnight » Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:22 pm

Teratogen...I bet you're still living at home...probably in the basement.
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Post by Byron » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:41 pm

Midnight, in London, a basement apartment (or flat as we call them) could set you back, half a million British Pounds. If I could afford to live in a flat that costs that much I'd be happy to show you round my palatial abode.
On an international forum like this one, the meanings can be very different in other cultures/countries. We only have to examine the problem with a music editor's cockup to find such an example. 8)
Perhaps he was standing in his toilet cogitating upon his flat's external bushy thickets, when he made the cockup about which male photo he should be using? Does that lose anything in its cross-pond interpretataion?
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Post by jurica » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:37 pm

Midnight wrote:I wil have to look into this guy's thinking. But I think it's probably more soft-soap communism.
no, don't read it!!! he's not soft-soap communist, he's a 'lenin was grat because he was ready to kill and send to prison everybody who disagreed' communist. even i think his political views are a load of garbage. i only quoted him because he's very good at pointing out contemporary problems. his solutions do not sound as good to me, and they'll sound far worse to you.

he's not famous for politics, he's much better at psychoanalyses. something like Noam Chomsky with whome you can easily disagree when it comes to politics, but is great at linguistics.
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