Hold on my brother, my sister---

Ask and answer questions about Leonard Cohen, his work, this forum and the websites!
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witty_owl
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Hold on my brother, my sister---

Post by witty_owl » Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:06 am

Hold on hold on my brother,
my sister hold on tight.


I thought it appropriate to start this thread with a quote from the well mannered artist that inspires people to visit this site.
The line of discussion that has caused several members to proclaim departure is not worthy of dignifying with participation. Nor is it a good reason to depart and thus allow the lowest common denominator to hijack the original purpose of these forums such that discussion of Leonard's work, other similar artists, poetry and songwriting to be displaced by petty bickering. :( We have better things to do with our time and our very short lives than to pursue the negative path that the naysayers so effectively seem to divert us towards.
It is worth reiterating that while there was no explanation for the dilemma of the human condition-- for why humans have been competitive, aggressive and selfish when the ideals are to be cooperative, loving and selfless-- humans had no choice other than to block the whole issue from their minds, for the condemnation they otherwise experienced from these ideals was dangerously-- even suicidally depressing.
Faced with the unjust criticism that the cooperative, loving, selfless ideals of life represented, humans eventually learnt they had no choice other than to accept their divisive reality as normal and deny the whole concept and truth of ideality.

This quote from the writer and biologist, Jeremy Griffith seems a good analogy as a general description for the specific problems that this board repeatedly encounters. The aggressive and selfish naysayers are succeeding in their efforts to pervert the cooperative and selfless ideals of those members whole wish nothing more than to engage in warm, well meaning and intelligent discussion. Do not forget that for the naysayers, this is nothing more than banal entertainment and they get their jollys from seeing others in conflict.
Do not stoop to strategies like this.
Maintain the good ideals of this board ignore the "shit droppers" and pursue the worthwhile discussions. Only this way can this website survive as a place worthy to visit.
Regards Witty Owl.
jurica
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Post by jurica » Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:22 pm

i've read the 'shit' thread once. when it only started and wasn't even answered. i found it grade-school-stupid and teenage-self-centered. never went to see what's going on again. after reading this, i can see i was right.

come on, people. you don't need to read rubbish only because it was written on a LC forum.
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Kush
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Post by Kush » Wed Feb 11, 2004 7:54 pm

I certainly don't condone S. Cohen's methods but some of the points he made were ones that I have myself made earlier on more than one occasion. And he provided some colorful language which was really funny IMO :) Plus i thought Tchoc made the most sensible comments on that thread. So I certainly disagree completely with you guys about that thread.
see...to be human is to disagree, to have our own ideas and consequently to have conflict !! We would have to be robots to have no conflict. there's gotta be cracks on this forum, that's how the light comes in.
I don't know where J griffith is coming from but biologists don't usually talk of ideals.
songster
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Post by songster » Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:27 pm

Just curious, Kush. About the "colorful language". Precisely, which bits did you think were so "funny"?
Moonlight
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Post by Moonlight » Wed Feb 11, 2004 8:59 pm

Yes, Kush. Answer that one...
songster
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Post by songster » Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:08 pm

I just went back and read over Tchoc's posts. There is something very very weird about them. I beginning to think M is right.
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Kush
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Post by Kush » Wed Feb 11, 2004 9:23 pm

Ah songster I know precisely what you are trying to get at.
But thankfully I don't need to answer your interrogations or live upto your high standards or have anything to do with you at all so do not ask me more questions.

ciao,
Kush
songster
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Post by songster » Wed Feb 11, 2004 10:30 pm

Kush,

I am not trying to get you to live up to my high standards. I don't think I'm setting the bar that high and I don't think that one question is an interrogation.

In the past on other threads you have stated that you didn't understand the furor others made over the number of Lizzytysh's posts. SC began that thread as another diatribe about it. It then degenerated into an all-out attack laden with obscenities. Let me put it this way. Let's suppose that SC was writing about you. He doesn't like how much you post or what you post or your use of emoticons. In the process of venting he posts a graphic of a man sucking a penis disquised as "this thread sucks." He talks about your fat-assed generation. He implies that you are a whore-monger. He describes you performing fellatio on Leonard Cohen and others. When Jarkko removes the first offensive graphic, SC then posts an avatar of a man with his hands at his crotch groping his penis. ALL of this is directed against YOU. He then states that in all of this he is the one who is "shining."

You don't want to have anything to do with me? Fine. But if SC's garbage had been directed at you or anyone else on the forum I would not have found it "funny." But Lizzytysh isn't a human being so she's fair game and we can all sit around and laugh at how clever it all is.
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Kush
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Post by Kush » Thu Feb 12, 2004 1:23 am

Well now I know we have nothing in common. Least of all that fertile and colorful imagination you appear to possess. :)
But this back and forth slanging match is counterproductive and tiresome so I'll take a break. Have a good one.

p.s. I have made it perfectly clear to Lizzytysh that any on or off-board communications will not affect me speaking my mind as I see fit. She has heartily agreed to that. If this is disputed I may yet be able to produce the 'pm' that says so :wink:.

p.p.s
In the past on other threads you have stated that you didn't understand the furor others made over the number of Lizzytysh's posts.
At the beginning when she joined here, yes. I changed my mind sometime in between about that (when I'd had enough) and have been consistent since then. It's not illegal to change ones mind. Moreover I'm not running for President.
But I think I'll post less now......
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Coco
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Post by Coco » Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:57 am

Hi Everyone,

I know that I said I had quacked my last quack. But if Kush can change his mind I guesss I can too. And Kush if you thought Sept.Cohen was funny then you are a big disappointment. I notice that you DID NOT answer Songster's question about what you would have thought if Sept.Cohen had posted that obscene grapic with YOUR name attached to it. And members came on and said they thought it was funny.

I know you are smart but Songster is (on this subject) smarter than you. Psychologists will tell you that pornography like Sept.Cohen posted is not just obscene but threatening. It is not funny, it is frightening. And Songster is right about that if a graphic/avatar of a pornographic picture of a MAN were posted (with all those hateful words) all the men would be raising the roof about it. For some reason it is open season on women though. You can degrade a woman as much as you want to and some men will think it is screamingly funny. Thank goodness that Jarkko did not agree with them.

And for the first time I am going to use THIS emoticon

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Sept.Cohen's post was not funny. It was wicked.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
jurica
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Post by jurica » Thu Feb 12, 2004 2:59 pm

since this thread (like many before) is turning to counterproductive argument, i'll no longer post here.

i just want to state that i. personaly, wouldn't mind much if someone posted pornography with MY name atached to it. but nobody seems to feel need to do so... perhaps it's because it wouldn't be 'funny' if a person who they're offending doesn't mind them...
George.Wright
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Post by George.Wright » Thu Feb 12, 2004 3:51 pm

I think September Cohen's posts were out of order but were attention seeking posts.
I think he is a mask for another sinister member of this Forum.
Georges
I am a right bad ass, dankish prince and I love my Violet to bits.
songster
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Post by songster » Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:48 pm

Kush,

I am bemused by several of your statements on this thread. First, you state that
to be human is to disagree, to have our own ideas and consequently to have conflict !! We would have to be robots to have no conflict. there's gotta be cracks on this forum, that's how the light comes in.
But when I asked you a legitimate question, which you rightly interpreted as being critical of a statement you'd made, you in effect washed your hand of me. I really don't think it is fair to dismiss someone with a "Thankfully... I don't have anything to do with you." So, I must have done something in the past to merit that kind of statement. Whatever, it was I apologize, sincerely.

As for my description of SC's hypothetical post to you, I thought it was more clinical than colorful. :) Plus, I didn't have to use any imagination at all. I just followed SC's script and substituted genders.

Kush, I'm am speaking very honestly here. I believe if that thread had been directed against you, there would have been forum members coming out of the woodwork to denouce SC. Good ol', likeable Kush. :) But the thread wasn't against you. It was against good ol', exasperating, contrary, nerve-plucking Lizzytysh. I don't believe anyone should be subjected to that kind of ugliness simply because they are (in some forum members' opinions) "unlikeable." (I am of course not referring to the relationship between you and Lizzytysh.)

The whole point of my reworking SC's post was to try and generate some sense of empathy for her. There have been times when I have called down fire from heaven on my own collection of "unlikeables." And I liked it when people laughed while watching my victims scurry around frantically trying to douse the flames. But one day I learned my lesson. There is a quote from one of those old Greeks that goes something like this..."Be Kind...for you know not what great battles the the other heart my be engaged in." SC on the other thread claimed that the board was made up of "virtual" people. He proves by his postings that we are not "real" to him. He's wrong. We are real. The problem is we don't really know what "other battles" our opponents may be waging. So we slag away at each other confident that it's all in good clean (or unclean) fun. This doesn't mean that a good sharp exchange is impossible or undesireable. People should defend their positions and viewpoints with as much fire-power and humor as they have in their arsenal. But the content of SC's thread wasn't about trying to get Lizzytysh to be less heavy-handed with her posts or emoticons. It was about humiliating her. Pure and simple.

This is my last say on the subject. (I hope.) :D


P.S. We may have more in common than you think.
September_Cohen
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Post by September_Cohen » Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:22 pm

Now...two thread about the same old thing...what a success
One for the money
Two for the show
Three to get ready
Go man go
I said tell me Mr. Siegal
How do I get out of here
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Coco
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Post by Coco » Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:53 am

Hi Jurica,

Since you "don't mind" maybe Sept.Cohen can rustle up some pornography for you. It could be the start of a beautiful friendship for the two of you. You could play in the gutter together.
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