"Not a Jew"?????

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Hal E. Lujah
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Re: "Not a Jew"?????

Postby Hal E. Lujah » Fri May 22, 2009 1:37 am

Crack,
Yes, thanks for the link. That's a good review. Interesting to contrast LC and Dylan. There's a lot to discuss in all this, when I have the time to spread out a little. Good observation, by Bright Behind Me, about the poem.

I am in deliberation about the personal vs nonpersonal senses of God. I need to try to resolve same.

Hal E.
cracked bell
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Re: "Not a Jew"?????

Postby cracked bell » Fri May 22, 2009 2:20 am

Hal E. Lujah wrote: I am in deliberation about the personal vs nonpersonal senses of God. I need to try to resolve same.

Hal E.
We have to keep trying, but you can never resolve the Infinite.

The many names of God in Judaism point to this -- especially Hashem (God's Name that religious Jews don't write casually or pronounce) which refers to the personal aspect of God vs. Elokim ("God") the Creator. But you're right that God in the Jewish tradition is distinct from his creation, even while his light infuses it.
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brightnow
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Re: "Not a Jew"?????

Postby brightnow » Fri May 22, 2009 4:39 pm

cracked bell wrote:
Hal E. Lujah wrote: I am in deliberation about the personal vs nonpersonal senses of God. I need to try to resolve same.

Hal E.
We have to keep trying, but you can never resolve the Infinite.

The many names of God in Judaism point to this -- especially Hashem (God's Name that religious Jews don't write casually or pronounce) which refers to the personal aspect of God vs. Elokim ("God") the Creator. But you're right that God in the Jewish tradition is distinct from his creation, even while his light infuses it.
Cracked Bell, some minor clarification here: "HaShem" (literally meaning "The Name") is one of the names of God that religious Jews DO use in a more causal way since it is an indirect reference to God.
Also, "Elohim" is a holy name that is not used outside of worship and scripture, but the variance that you used ("Elokim") is derived from it for the purpose of more casual use. Swapping K for H to decrease the sanctity of the name is done in other places as well. For example: religious Jews will, if needed, spell out YKVK, but they will never spell out (let alone utter) the original version of THAT name.
Columbia May 11, 2009; Boston May 29, 2009; Durham November 3, 2009; Las Vegas December 10 & 11, 2010; Austin November 1, 2012; Boston December 15, 2012; Brooklyn December 20, 2012
cracked bell
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Re: "Not a Jew"?????

Postby cracked bell » Fri May 22, 2009 5:18 pm

brightnow wrote: Cracked Bell, some minor clarification here: "HaShem" (literally meaning "The Name") is one of the names of God that religious Jews DO use in a more causal way since it is an indirect reference to God.
Also, "Elohim" is a holy name that is not used outside of worship and scripture, but the variance that you used ("Elokim") is derived from it for the purpose of more casual use. Swapping K for H to decrease the sanctity of the name is done in other places as well. For example: religious Jews will, if needed, spell out YKVK, but they will never spell out (let alone utter) the original version of THAT name.

Yes, yes! Sorry for being confusing -- I'm on the same page with you. For some reason I forgot you could put the K's in in English, so I was just substituting "Hashem" to avoid writing the actual letters.
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brightnow
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Re: "Not a Jew"?????

Postby brightnow » Fri May 22, 2009 6:03 pm

Cracked Bell: I thought that was what you were trying to do, but was not sure :)

I guess I won't be recommending Anjani's "The Sacred Names" to you. She does a fabulous job, but is in no way shy about explicitly using every single name...
Columbia May 11, 2009; Boston May 29, 2009; Durham November 3, 2009; Las Vegas December 10 & 11, 2010; Austin November 1, 2012; Boston December 15, 2012; Brooklyn December 20, 2012
Hal E. Lujah
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Re: "Not a Jew"?????

Postby Hal E. Lujah » Sat May 23, 2009 12:45 am

You say I take the Name in vain, I don't even know the Name...


I thought that Elohim was not a frequently used name, since it is a plural, and seems to refer to angels and God. It is in Bereishis, I reckon. It is interesting to note that a very esteemed Rabbi told me that the word God can easily be written since it obviously is NOT a name of God, so one wonders how that ever got started with the G-d bit.

LC went to India to hear Balsekar say that everything is determined and all one can do is accept that. He could have stayed home and read Baruch Spinoza, the great 17th century Jewish philosopher who said exactly that. Spinoza was excommunicated however for arguing that there is no personal God, only God as Nature, or the principle that animates Nature, as far as I get it. Einstein said he believed in God only in the Spinozistic sense. All his books were banned by the Christian church, by the way. He arose in distinction to the dualism of Descartes, and seemed to argue that there was something, neither extended nor mind, which gives rise to both, but it neutral between them. I am continuing to assess what is meant by the Shema, and if it suggests some kind of monism. The great thing about Judaism is that interpretation is encouraged; yet, I think there are certain fundamentals which even liberals cannot give up. I think once you say there is no personal God you might no longer be Jewish by religious-philosophical standards. Or, I may be wrong, but it seems that the whole thing is based on a personal God giving the Torah to the Jews, etc. If you take away the personal sense of God, then you can't really pray to It, or have a covenant with it, any more than one can have an agreement with the law of gravity. I am not sure, but I think that's why they kicked ole Spinoza out and never took him back, which I hear was rare at the time. What I find interesting is how LC puts the individual soul above the Book: also a bit controversial. I agree, the Torah exists for man, and the individual's soul is most important. Man does not live for the Torah, or for the future generations, etc. Yet one can see the dangers in overdoing this as well. Cohen represents the Kafkaesque sensibility... one recalls that there is a Door just for you, and only you can know what that means. In sum, I am not sure how well Eastern philosophy and Judaism fit together, or how far you can stretch Judaism before it ain't Judaism anymore.

Hal E.
EzraPoundoflesh
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Re: "Not a Jew"?????

Postby EzraPoundoflesh » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:35 am

That was me that did that.... You wouldn't believe what I've inspired. This goes back to the early 1990s, I had the great pleasure to meet the gracious and beautiful Lorca Cohen. Unfortunately for me, in my youth I decided on the policy of truth, which resulted in me stating that her father, the man who made blue raincoats famous, Leonard Norman Cohen CC GOQ.... was not a Jew. I am a little particular about who is a Jew, granted I do give a little leeway, so I don't think you need to tfollow the Torah's commandment and actually kill a gay man any Jew wotthu of his tzitzit and tallit should at least think that they are abominations.... So needless to say, my chances with Lorca got shot down like the poet she's named for.... and truth be told, (goddamn policy of truth! Can't I just lie for once in my life?) I am the grandson of a mamzer, had sex with a women in the "filth of menstruation" (the Talmud's words not mine) and I am an abomination... So I can't even convert and be a Jew.
However, this didn't stop me from attending Allen Ginsberg's funeral at Congregation Emanu-El San Francisco, which was swarming with abominations.... Dennis Hopper was there.... Allen, who went out of his way to be a sodomite among the sons of Israel, who went whoring after other religions (Torah's words, not mine) and appeared naked on stage and maybe even uncovered his father's skirt, which are big no-nos are far as HaShem is concerned, somehow managed to get right up there on the mercy seat, astride the Ark of the Covenant, with the Rabbi saying " I've bern asked how I could have a ceremony for such a man.... well, goddamn it, why not?"
Always up for a bit of blasphemy, so a good time was had by all. Kaddish, Smaddish! Hare, Hare, Rama, Rama, Shiva, Vishnu, Krishna, Kali, Om Ah Hum Vajra Guru Padma Siddhi Hum....
So that is the story behind Leonard Cohen's poem NOT A JEW and he's correct, I am not a Jew, forbidden by Devarim 23 which states that a Mamzer shall mot be allowed unto the congregation of the Lord, even to ten generations.... but that's OK.... it's a blessing and a curse... I am happy following Bokonon.... anyone up for a little Boko-maru?

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