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Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:39 am
by Tchocolatl
My position is not always comfortable, because I see many sides - I can not accept just one and discard others - and I think they are objectively existing.

For example, regarding my opinion on the film Death Poet Society, I am aware that this is subjective, it is not because I do not like it that the film bad. I just did not like it deep under my skin, but I am aware that many people it extraordinary, and I understand their reason, and I do not put it into questioning (I just can express my feeling about this).

Now, for the many sides (or layers, or anybody who has a more accurate term please say it) of Leonard Cohen work, I'm convinced it is objective and does not depend of what I feel and think.

For example, people who have done as much monastery as he did may understand meanings that scholars and others don't. And this is just one example.

I hope I had clarify my point, now. :D

Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:13 pm
by lizzytysh
Hi Tchocolatl ~
I understood this as "his work is the stuff of scolars".

And I think "A part of his work is the stuff of scolars".
This is merely a difference in semantics. If I were to list everyone, for whom his work is really, I would still be writing. If I thought his work was for scholars only, I would never have come here.

I hope I've clarified my own meaning :D .

~ Lizzy

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 12:39 am
by linda_lakeside
Tchoco wrote:Now, for the many sides (or layers, or anybody who has a more accurate term please say it)

I'm not saying it's 'accurate' but I always liked the word "facet" and the variations thereof.

See you guys,

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:21 am
by Tchocolatl
I'm sorry if I have hurt your feelings, L, and LL. My harsh feelings about the film you both liked so much were true and not directed toward people who likes it.

When I saw it, I had this feeling of repulsion, a skin reaction. All this because of this useless and STUPID suicide at the end. I can't help it. I find this STUPID at the utmost a movie like that.

This has nothing to do with you.


Most scholars have a tendency to stuff everyting in their brain, think that they master the stuff (if not the world) by doing this, and most of the time this is just in their head. Confronted to reality they do not stand the road. They only can survive in close environment.

However I like scholars very much, in general, they are very interesting people, I like the world of the mind they created to survive. And (I know, I am not suppose to begin a sentence with "And", but, Ey!) besides, they are not all alike. Some have access to the rest of their body, and even sometimes, to their heart. :wink:

L. I think that LL was right! I was talking about a facet. And you are right, you would be still doing the list. Cheers!

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 6:04 am
by lizzytysh
You didn't hurt my feelings, T, and certainly not over a difference in opinion over a film. I was merely clarifying what I did/didn't mean with my own comment about Leonard's work being the stuff of scholars, as he intended for his work to last.

I didn't like the ending of the movie, either. In fact, I hated the suicide. However, uncomfortable endings do not a bad movie make. I liked the movie and the valid points it made [albeit intensely] regarding forcing children to live in their parents' image; inflexibility in looking at the changing world; etc. Many good points were made. A film can only do so much :wink: .

The layerings, the facets, the multi-dimensionality of Leonard's work are one/some of many things that will make it last.

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:52 am
by tomsakic
Since I heard about the tour, I'm listening often to Cohen Live (sets me to the mood :wink: ) and Dear Heather ~ by strange way of destiny, I enjoy Nightingale very much now. It comes as a positive vibration on the record. I wouldn't say anything if I'd hear Leonard and Anjani singing it a capella on encores :D
Other old favourites are still favourites, The Faith is great for the new closer of the show; only track with whom I still have occasional fight is the title track...

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:33 pm
by Tchocolatl
:lol: Not only lists of places to show but also lists of how to do the show, now!

L. I know what you mean, I agree with the principles you said (Iwonder who would not be, however). I had appriated art works wich included suicide in it like in Marguerite Yourcenar's Memoirs of Hadrians and the film Le mari de la coiffeuse (free trans.: The hairdresser's husband) with Jean Rochefort and Anna Galiena. Probably 'cause it was done like something very dramatic (although the film is considered a comedy, I guess) like let say about stories of ancient Greek gods, for example.

But this film, I did not like, because it was too casual, too ""real" too near every day life of teenagers, and because facing adversity is a part of life that youngsters are learning. To commit this at the firts difficulties and/or opposition in life, that was on the other hand, easy and maybe too easy, and to show this as poetry, oh no! I have a repulsion.

I think that the moral that the story is carying could be embodied in any better template.

Have a nice day, folks!

Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:23 pm
by lizzytysh
I didn't see it presented as "poetry" though, and thought the film made the point extremely well as to the waste of the suicide. The suicide rate for teenagers is, in fact, quite high ~ and they often do it for far lesser reason than the character in the film did, i.e. feeling absolutely hopeless and powerless about the path his life was being set upon, regardless of what he wanted. I haven't seen the other films, though, so I can't comment on them, or compare.

Tom ~ Ahhhhh; eventually you'll have that glass of wine and enjoy "Dear Heather," too. Perhaps, when it's done Live [though I can't imagine it, given all the difficulty of doing such a thing], and you can appreciate its playfulness, which will no doubt show in their faces. It's great to see you come to terms with "Nightingale"! "The Faith" ~ hearing that in person would be sublime.

Love to you both,

Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:01 pm
by tomsakic
Well, I believe now I will really hear it! There are some hints that this tour is real after all...

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:55 am
by Kail
Today I sat and listened carefully to a new CD by my favourite singer.

In Australia Leonard Cohen's songs are never played on the radio; I was lucky to get one of his records amongst an armful of 30 I bought 15 years ago from a record shop that was closing down. That was my grocery money, but I never regretted going hungry those 2 weeks. So I discovered Leonard, and made sure I collected every song I could get. Suicide music, according to my friends, but listening to his deeply understanding lyrics and gentle melodies brought reassurance that the terrible things in life, and the bitter depressions I've known can be handled with a smile.

Even at first hearing I was sure the unabashed sexiness of the lyrics was also an expression of a deep yearning to be closer to g-d. But then I've always perceived g-d in a very personal way, as both friend and lover, so I naturally interpreted it that way.

Now I hear in his lyrics that the Nightingale of the Sinai,
Yom Kippur 1973, is done with singing, it sounds as tho this is the last CD he is planning to release.

Fare thee well my nightingale
T'was long ago I found you
Now all your songs of beauty fail
The forest closes round you.

I'd suggest that the nightingale referred to is his voice, I'm just relieved to see he still has concerts scheduled for next year.

I'd like to thank Leonard for what his music has has contributed to my life. A dimension has been added that would not have been there otherwise.

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:42 pm
by lizzytysh
Dear Kail ~

Welcome to the Forum :D ~ and to the realization that you've encountered another one of those times when we love to find out we were wrong. Leonard is also in the process of putting out another book of poetry ~ and another album :D !

Great find you made 15 years ago 8) :D !

~ Lizzytysh

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:15 pm
by jurica
well, you'll be glad to hear that i think you are wrong.

1. nightingale refers to Carl Anderson, a jazz musician who died in 2004. actualy it's more complicated than that (since the song was actualy written before, i think in '70s or something like that. don't remember exactly), but to put it simply: it's not about his voice, i belive.

2. Leonard has plans to issue another album somewhere in 2006. and before that - with Anjani Thomas, Blue Alert. so, he barely ever was so active!

Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:28 am
by Lily_Marlene
In the album jacket, Cohen dedicates the song to Carl Anderson, who played Judas is Jesus Christ superstar, and passed away before Dear Heather was released.

Having lost my father, and a very dear friend in 2005, what I get from Nightingale, is: "though you are singing somewhere still, I can no longer hear you"....

I feel that the tune is upbeat as a reminder that, although grief is inevitable on earth after a loved one's departure, there is something more beyond the grave - so rejoice and celebrate the life they had on earth, and remember that all good things do NOT come to an end.

But, maybe I'm wrong. I'm drunk and sentimental.



Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 4:45 pm
by MadisonB
I used to think this was such a cute, happy little piece of fluff until I really started listening.

"Rest in peace my nightingale beneath your branch of holly".. I can just picture a dead little birdie in the snow, his little talons curled up and still in the position of clasping a branch...

"Though you are singing somewhere still, I can no longer hear you..." ..Speaks for itself. A beautiful line... He is still singing, but not in the physical world as we know it...

Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:30 pm
by lizzytysh
Dear Lily_Marlene and MadisonB ~

Each of your entries here resonate with me. A very touching interpretation of the literal picture of the dead bird, Madison. I've rescued a number of birds, tiny, small, and large... and have vivid memories of releasing one of the tiny ones onto a branch and the time it took for it to not hop back onto my finger, and finally walking away from it, and looking back to see it just sitting on the branch. Imagining it as you've described "a dead little birdie in the snow, his little talons curled up and still in the position of clasping a branch... " is so easy, with only a change of season and a different outcome. In my situation, I remember thinking how now it would be able to sing naturally in nature.

Having to deal with some very hard losses of my own over the past two years, Lily, I love being reminded of the truth that I try always to remember, yet sometimes still slips from sight, with the loneliness that comes through people being gone. Thanks for yours, which I hadn't read until now, but couldn't help noticing, when your huge eye caught mine :wink: .

~ Lizzy