Katrina

News about Leonard Cohen and his work, press, radio & TV programs etc.
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Young dr. Freud
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Post by Young dr. Freud » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:49 am

Dear Joe,

Looting in a disaster is one of the most despicable things a human being can do. I don't care if it is politically incorrect to say so and I don't care if I'm branded a pariah by this "compassionate" forum...But I bet a lot of the looters stayed behind on purpose to take advantage of the situation. They just didn't expect it to be as bad as it got. Your "bit of a redneck" friend is right. They should pay but they won't because everyone will start screaming about how "poor" they are. Which is total bullshit.
From what I understand, Ninevah was spared after many delays based on the search for an ever-decreasing number of "just" men.


You've got Jonah confused with Abraham and Ninevah confused with the Cities of the Plain, i.e. Sodom and Gomorrah. Ninevah repented and was spared. There weren't 10 righteous men to be found in S & G and the other cities of the plain so they got blasted. So, I'm a little confused about your analogy. Are you one of the "white Christians" Lizzytysh has accused of screaming about judgement?

YdF
bee
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Post by bee » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:48 am

Dear Joe, I liked your post very much, because you brought up an other dimension of this tragedy. I've been listening and watching the news, but what i was astonished about, was- to look at those big, fat guys in a very, very bad situation, crying like babies- oh help us, help us! but doing nothing for themselves, for their wives or children, like the big daddy just has to come, save them, wash them, put in clean beds, so they can continue whining and crying and sleeping. Like somebody did it to them, forgetting, that is a nature and you are a man! Fight and save your ass and your life if you must! They were no men at all, but those who thought they were "de man" they would go on looting and raping. Has this creature-the modern man-mutated so horribly, that he does not even remember anything about survival for himself and others, when nature shows it's true power? People keep watching these Survival stupid shows feeling oh so comfortable, but nature is all around us. Can smite us at any time-government, or no government. It wasn't a war, were the bombs and bullets are hunting you, so one can blame somebody's evil will or power, nature has no mercy. For people to be so dependent on concept of "big daddy" is truly shameful. I am going to read what you and YdF suggested, it really needs to be read again. Thanks for your post.
bee
bee
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Post by bee » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:45 am

Bee ~ Your 'cute' posting does nothing more than reveal the skewed nature of your thinking. I've held my beliefs long before I met Demetris, and the situation of Bush is totally apart from what any man, cute or otherwise, thinks. Perhaps, your own, perceived state of objectivity is more easily compromised. Let's see if YdF can "pop" up with the appropriate term of projection. We'd stand a better chance on that, if it didn't apply to you, of course. He's never been stellar in the realm of objectivity.

Following in the same vein, perhaps, you've only recently 'discovered' Dem in the Gallery, and your atypical coyness of "I can see that Dem indeed is a gorgeous looking guy" is, rather, testimony to your being swayed into "flattery nicey" mode.

Perhaps, you need concrete evidence, that a woman can actually think independently of a man, and haven't been around long enough to see me disagree with this man? The research is up to you.


Dear Lizzy, why is my nature of thinking skewed? :( I didn't say there is anything wrong for you being in love with Dem, did I? That would be a skewed nature of thinking indeed, if I would think otherwise, 'coze I can understand you in Florida dreamin' of far away lands and Dem swimming in that Aegean sea (all of him honoring de nature, sea and fish, as you-sweet yo'self once put it), so- I say nothin' at all about it, go ahead and be happy! :D What I objected to, was-don't involve the propaganda of democratic party in your love life.
Why? Because as I see it-the communists usually express very liberal views at the party meetings, newspaper articles, where-ever they can gain some political power, views-popular to populus. However, in their personal life they are very conservative and conventional- (actually, at home they will tell you how much they hate the "little, poor guy." ) Thus-being some communists wife, or lover does not mean, that you would have the same opportunity to express your communistic views at home-pretty soon you would hear the unpleasant-shut up and listen to your man-words. :twisted:
testimony to your being swayed into "flattery nicey" mode.
Lizzy, this is so untrue-if I wanted to flatter somebody, surely, I would find better means than to sing -- proletarians of the world, unite, unite, unite! 8) Well-perhaps I could say-gorgeous, gorgeous if I was in a mood, can happen, happens to everybody, doesn't it?
OK, Lizzy, just was teasing you, we need to lighten up a bit. :wink:
bee
jurica
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Post by jurica » Sat Sep 03, 2005 2:55 pm

i can't seem to understand (must be a cultural difference) what is it with looting that makes you so upset?

the whole cities were run down, and you bother so much with a few TV sets and DVD players that some evil people will steal.

again, it may be a misconception i got from poor journalism, but it seems that for all the soldiers they brought to NO to kill 'evil looters' they could have sent some medical supplies also. but from what you can see on TV they only sent soldiers. people are still complainig there's no insulin and so on...

the impression we get here is: nobody cares if the people live or die as long as they don't steal from abandones stores? WTF? who CARES for abandoned stores? who CARES for another 1 million dollars lost (the looting cannot possibly ammount to anything NEAR the economical loss that already occurred).

i understand that gangs should be disarmed, since they stole all that weapones, but this 'looting is evil', and the most important thing is to kill all of the looters i can't understand.
Tchocolatl
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Post by Tchocolatl » Sat Sep 03, 2005 3:41 pm

Bee, so they are doing what they have to do : they are wrong. They are too "honest" to steal, so they ask people who can help then to do it, they are wrong. Why just don't say they are wrong because they are existing, it will save you a few time. Furthermore, I don't understand that you can not understand that people are in a state of shock, so many beloved are missing, and everything is under water and nobody cares to rush to help, what is the normal thing to do, you who wrote here that you are still crying when you think of your beloved dead, years and years after their departure, and that you are still under the shock of you aunt being punched by some rude guys. How can't you understand?

The looted? Now, I feel nauseate. It was reported this morning that mostly people only took what was needed to stay alive. OK, they shoot on the helicopters etc, but Bush was able to walk freely among the peaceful majority of people.

Certainly some less honest people stole. OK. But how can some do not understand that anything is perfect, but the majority is OK. No. they have to point the little spot on the glass. Excuse me but, this time I have not other word thatn "stupid" to qualify this.

When I looked at the reports, I see a few panic states, but mostly people are acting OK and many are helping others until they can not stand on their legs.

"My friend is a bit of a redneck and he was going on about the looting and his desire to see those responsible pay dearly."

What the expression redneck means, please? No head on a cut neck? Only a neck and nothing else? Is it human or a new model of a pet answering service that also provides randoms opinions by choosing among the few words or its vocabulary as a distraction for people?

I can't believe what I read here....Well, I won't reply something that can be replied right now, I'll be too busy. Sorry. Take care. Have a nice day.
Linda
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Post by Linda » Sat Sep 03, 2005 6:06 pm

Let's put politics to the side for just a minute here.
The hurricane was a terrible natural disaster that no one can totally be prepared for. But having lived through a town being totally wiped out by a flood in 1997. I know the American people are terrrific and help is going to be pouring in to those people in need. It already is by donations of money, bottled water, food, items that people will need who have lost everything. There are drop off sites everywhere in Minnesota and goods are being shipped down there. Organizations such as churches will be sending groups of people to help physically and mentally as soon as they can. The Red Cross and Salvation army have received millions in donations already for the hurricane relief effort. However, order has to be restored before any of this can run smoothly.

If you want to get back to politics, a city such as New Orleans has been a target for a hurricane disaster for years. It is a city, which a great part of is built in a bowl, below sea level. Where have the local government officals been for years past that have not been taking the warnings seriously that this would be bound to happen. However that is how it goes. If they only knew then, what they know now.

Lizzytish, back to more politics Your statement is misleading about George Bush being elected.

This is what the Time November 15, 2004 issue had to say: George Bush beat Senator John Kerry by about 51% to 48.5% He became the first President since 1988 to win a majority of the popular vote, he gained seats in both houses of Congress, and for good measure he knocked off not just the Democratic nominee but the party's Senate leader as well.

Bush got 51 to Kerry 48% of the popular vote, and 274 to 252 of the electoral vote. Also 120 million people voted, 15 million more than in 2000.
I think the American people spoke up and elected a leader.

Clear out the cob webs liberals and get on with life, after all, we are all Americans.

Dem, I really don't give a d--- what you think of us! Just wanted you to know that.

The people suffering from the hurricane are in my prayers.
Linda
bee
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Post by bee » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:55 pm

Tchoco-Don't read reports too much, because the situation is changing by minute. The reports are coming form the disaster zone on TV for 24 hours.

Linda, thank you for your post. USA is going to be OK and people are good and compassionate here.

Jurica, the most important thing in times of catastrophe is discipline and order. Looting jeopardizes that, also it victimizes the victims of catastrophe even more. It is against the law. :twisted:
bee
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Post by bee » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:25 pm

so many beloved are missing, and everything is under water and nobody cares to rush to help, what is the normal thing to do, you who wrote here that you are still crying when you think of your beloved dead, years and years after their departure, and that you are still under the shock of you aunt being punched by some rude guys. How can't you understand?
Tchoco- by that very reason, that I've heard these stories from my family, when women, children and old were dragged on the kettle trains, thrown out somewhere in the forest thousands of miles from home, to die. They did not sit there to die, they were moving and cutting the trees, building some shacks, trying to survive, to live. they were cooking grass and the bark from trees, if there was a river, getting the fish, anything what is there in nature. There was nobody to expect help from, just the opposite.
shock of you aunt being punched by some rude guys.
Tchoco- my aunt was made slave by communist rulers-she wasn't punched by some rude guys - she was placed to guard a farm at night,-40C, without a gun, she was beaten and raped. It is not quite the same as being rude.
bee
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Dem
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Post by Dem » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:57 pm

Dear Mirek
to your questions
(I own you some answers about the ph of the body etc but those in a next posting).

Now:
Tell me Dem - is calling people "psychopaths" or "idiots" also a part of Greek culture?
It is.
In Greece we have a saying:
To call " the trough a trough and the fig a fig"
(i.e. to be honest and to call someone what it is.)
So I will keep calling the "psychopaths psychopaths and the idiots idiots"
Do you think all Americans are responsible for Bush politics?
I believe that as long as they claim that they live in a democracy and continue to pay their taxes they are responsible for the politics of their Goverment.
Do you think that those poor people in New Orleans deserved such a tragedy?
No. I would prefer Katrina to had struck in Washington DC.
What do you think of Saddam's politics? You've never mentioned your point of view - are you pro or con, as far as terrorism is concerned?
Saddam was a brutal dictator.
Helped and armed by the USA (and other countries) when he played their game.

I condemn terrorism from wherever it comes.
I am neither with Bush nor with Bin Laden.
But I regard the USA today to be the No1 terrorist in the world.
What is your opinion of Greek politics -

It sucks! Like in every other country.
e.g. - do you feel responsible for so called Greek black colonels in the 40s, when thousands of Greeks had to leave their country? Was that also part of the Greek culture?
You need to read the Greek history better first and then ask questions like this.

There weren't any colonels (black or white) in the 40's.
There was a Greek civil war after the Nazi occupation.

There were some colonels and a junta in the 60's though.

When you will learn more I will be glad to discuss these issues with you
(and the role that the UK and the USA played to all these, especially to the CIA -organized junta of 1967-1974)
Before the Olympics in Athens thousands of homeless dogs were caught and murdered - is that also a part of the Greek culture?
It is true that before the Olympics stray dogs and cats were gathered from the streets.
There were rumors that manyof them were killed. The official answer is that this is not true.
If you can give me some hard evidence that the rumors are true I will be more than happy to condemn that.
Certainly an action like this is not a part of the Greek culture.
Do you personally feel responsible for this?


No I don't.
I was and I still am against the Olympicstaking place in Greece.
It was a huge mistake for the country and I hadn't the slightest involment
in the organizing.


Any more questions?

Dem
Fljotsdale
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Post by Fljotsdale » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:41 am

bee wrote:Fljots, mostly they looted the stores, where they could steal guns and at ATM machines.
Now there are armed gangs of men, who do the looting fully armed, not hesitating to shoot at police. Police is afraid to go in where the gangs are raping, killing and looting some more> Has nothing to do with hunger or thirst.
Apalling. Yes, it's been on the news since I wrote my little contribution to this thread. I thank our government we don't have promiscuously armed citizens in this country, nor much in the way of gun shops.
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
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lizzytysh
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Dedicated to All the Victims of Hurricane Katrina

Post by lizzytysh » Sun Sep 04, 2005 3:06 am

Through the words of someone who is very much a part of this site and Forum, I dedicate my sentiments to all the victims of Hurricane Katrina. These lyrics, by Leonard, who expresses his own compassion very differently than most, and through which I convey my own message, were not created out of thin air. I wish they were.

Please Don't Pass Me By (A Disgrace)


I was walking in New York City and I brushed up against the man in front of
me. I felt a cardboard placard on his back. And when we passed a streetlight,
I could read it, it said "Please don't pass me by - I am blind, but you can
see - I've been blinded totally - Please don't pass me by." I was walking
along 7th Avenue, when I came to 14th Street I saw on the corner curious
mutilations of the human form; it was a school for handicapped people. And
there were cripples, and people in wheelchairs and crutches and it was snowing,
and I got this sense that the whole city was singing this:

Oh please don't pass me by,
oh please don't pass me by,
for I am blind, but you can see,
yes, I've been blinded totally,
oh please don't pass me by.

And you know as I was walking I thought it was them who were singing it, I
thought it was they who were singing it, I thought it was the other who was
singing it, I thought it was someone else. But as I moved along I knew it was
me, and that I was singing it to myself. It went:

Please don't pass me by,
oh please don't pass me by,
for I am blind, but you can see,
well, I've been blinded totally,
oh please don't pass me by.

Oh please don't pass me by.

Now I know that you're sitting there deep in your velvet seats and you're
thinking "Uh, he's up there saying something that he thinks about, but I'll
never have to sing that song." But I promise you friends, that you're going
to be singing this song: it may not be tonight, it may not be tomorrow, but
one day you'll be on your knees and I want you to know the words when the
time comes. Because you're going to have to sing it to yourself, or to another,
or to your brother. You're going to have to learn to sing this song, it goes:

Please don't pass me by,
ah you don't have to sing this .. not for you.
Please don't pass me by,
for I am blind, but you can see,
yes, I've been blinded totally,
oh please don't pass me by.

Well I sing this for the Jews and the Gypsies and the smoke that they made.
And I sing this for the children of England, their faces so grave. And I sing
this for a saviour with no one to save. Hey, won't you be naked for me? Hey,
won't you be naked for me? It goes:

Please don't pass me by,
oh please don't pass me by,
for I am blind, but you can see,
yes, I've been blinded totally,
oh now, please don't pass me by.

Now there's nothing that I tell you that will help you connect the blood
tortured night with the day that comes next. But I want it to hurt you, I
want it to end. Oh, won't you be naked for me? Oh now:

Please don't pass me by,
oh please don't pass me by,
for I am blind, but you can see,
but I've been blinded totally,
oh, please don't pass me by.

Well I sing this song for you Blonde Beasts, I sing this song for you Venuses
upon your shells on the foam of the sea. And I sing this for the freaks and
the cripples, and the hunchback, and the burned, and the burning, and the
maimed, and the broken, and the torn, and all of those that you talk about at
the coffee tables, at the meetings, and the demonstrations, on the streets,
in your music, in my songs. I mean the real ones that are burning, I mean the
real ones that are burning

I say, please don't pass me by,
oh now, please don't pass me by,
for I am blind, yeah but you can see,
ah now, I've been blinded totally,
oh no, please don't pass me by.

I know that you still think that its me. I know that you think that there's
somebody else. I know that these words aren't yours. But I tell you friends
that one day

You're going to get down on your knees,
you're going to get down on your knees,
you're going to get down on your knees,
you're going to get down on your knees,
you're going to get down on your knees,
you're going to get down on your knees,
you're going to get down on your knees,
you're going to get down on your knees,
you're going to get down ..

Oh, please don't pass me by,
oh, please don't pass me by,
for I am blind, yeah but you can see,
yes, I've been blinded totally,
oh, please don't pass me by.

Well you know I have my songs and I have my poems. I have my book and I have
the army, and sometimes I have your applause. I make some money, but you know
what my friends, I'm still out there on the corner. I'm with the freaks, I'm
with the hunted, I'm with the maimed, yes I'm with the torn, I'm with the down,
I'm with the poor. Come on now ...

Ah, please don't pass me by,
well I've got to go now friends,
but, please don't pass me by,
for I am blind, yeah but you can see,
oh, I've been blinded, I've been blinded totally,
oh now, please don't pass me by.

Now I want to take away my dignity, yes take my dignity. My friends, take my
dignity, take my form, take my style, take my honour, take my courage, take
my time, take my time, .. time .. 'Cause you know I'm with you singing this
song. And I wish you would, I wish you would, I wish you would go home with
someone else. Wish you'd go home with someone else. I wish you'd go home with
someone else. Don't be the person that you came with. Oh, don't be the person
that you came with, Oh don't be the person that you came with. Ah, I'm not
going to be. I can't stand him. I can't stand who I am. That's why I've got to
get down on my knees. Because I can't make it by myself. I'm not by myself
anymore because the man I was before he was a tyrant, he was a slave, he was
in chains, he was broken and then he sang:

Oh, please don't pass me by,
oh, please don't pass me by,
for I am blind, yes I am blind, Oh but you can see,
yes, I've been blinded totally,
oh, please don't pass me by.

Well I hope I see you out there on the corner. Yeah I hope as I go by that I
hear you whisper with the breeze. Because I'm going to leave you now, I'm
going to find me someone new. Find someone new.

And please don't pass me by.
Everybody Knows
co-written with Sharon Robinson


Everybody knows the dice are loaded
Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
Everybody knows the war is over
Everybody knows the good guys lost
Everybody knows the fight was fixed
The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
That's how it goes
Everybody knows

Everybody knows that the boat is leaking
Everybody knows that the captain lied
Everybody got this broken feeling
Like their father or their dog just died
Everybody talking to their pockets
Everybody wants a box of chocolates
And a long stem rose
Everybody knows

Everybody knows you love me baby
Everybody knows that you really do
And everybody knows that you've been faithful
Give or take a night or two
Everybody knows you've been discreet
But there were so many people you just had to meet
Without your clothes, everybody knows
Everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes, everybody knows
Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes, everybody knows

Everybody knows that it's now or never
Everybody knows that it's me or you
Everybody knows that you live forever
When you have done a line or two
Everybody knows the deal is rotten
Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton
For your ribbons and bows, everybody knows

Everybody knows that the Plague is coming
Everybody knows that it's moving fast
Everybody knows that your naked man and woman
Are just a shining artifact of the past
Everybody knows the scene is dead
But there's gonna be a meter on your bed
That will disclose what everybody knows

Everybody knows you're in trouble
Everybody knows what you've been through
From the bloody cross on top of Calvary
To the beach of Malibu
Everybody knows it's coming apart
Take one last look at this Sacred Heart
Before it blows and everybody knows

Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes, everybody knows
Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes, everybody knows
Everybody knows, everybody knows
That's how it goes
Everybody knows


My heart is with all of you ~ those of you who survived, and will continue to; and those of you who didn't, and won't.

I'm with you in your pleas of "Please don't pass me by!" May you find peace.

Love,
Elizabeth
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Sun Sep 04, 2005 5:35 am

Dear Joe ~

Thank you very much for your kind words. I'm confident you know how much I appreciate them. Your own reactions, as you know, are those of compassion. It's not something you have to drum up or try to imagine; it simply comes, with other images flashing or just thoughts and feelings, and you recognize it when it does, through situations like you've described, and thoughts and feelings that are simply there. It comes and is expressed in many ways, in many terms. If others want to consider it something else; well, that will always be the case. If someone thinks it's just too much, or serves ulterior purposes, that's fine, too. Regardless of what others think of the way I feel, I'll always err on the side of compassion.

I pray that St. Squidgy is, indeed, helping others, somewhere. This morning, I went to the first link that Greg provided ~ and felt a scarey kind of overwhelm, with the reality of so many people desperate to restore order to the chaos of their lives. I scanned to the bottom of the page, and didn't click on the "Next 100" link. I didn't have time, and still don't, but will. I saw one from Scott from Los Angeles, a message of emotional support to the victims, and wondered if it was from our Scott. [I've just gone to the second link. Today's [Saturday] 9:19 PM e-mail is very sobering.] Are you going to post one on either of them, asking Squidgy to contact you?

Your friend's sister-in-law's situation sounds very worrisome. I pray for a good outcome.

Your friends have come up with some pretty good headlines. I'd like to see a couple of them actually run.

Yes, there can be biblical ways of looking at this tragedy. However, for me, I feel most appropriate looking at it in terms of 19th-century engineering; failures of funding for re-enforcement of the levee system; and failures of officials to take seriously the model and scenario description [remarkably on target :shock: !] drawn up by someone in the relevant field, demonstrating what would happen and what would be necessary, if "Hurricane Pam" should hit New Orleans ~ and in terms of rescue and immediately setting up a "tent city," the officials' response to him was "Americans don't stay in tents!" They heeded none of the report. I also look at the new Homeland Security Administration ~ FEMA used to be solely for natural disasters. Now, they are under the auspices and control of HSA, and woefully represented there, as the focus is on "terrorism." In some document, where a huge number of possibilities were addressed, the total was [something like] 222 different things, and of those only 2 had to do with hurricanes. [The terrorists must be loving watching the U.S. response to this disaster. They must be feeling very empowered right about now.] So, perhaps we need to be focusing more on the Director of Homeland Security, whom Bush appointed. 'Even' Bush is admitting that this response was not acceptable. Politically, of course, he has no choice but to acknowledge the obvious.

On the biblical perspectives, I feel that it tends to be a 3rd-party way of blaming the victim. Nature is so harrowingly unpredictable. This ~ or another natural disaster ~ could happen to any of us at any time. Yet, if we can shore ourselves up in the belief that, in some form or fashion, these people 'had it coming,' then that belief will create a sense of stability in our fearful hearts, and we can soothe ourselves into believing that "It won't happen to me because . . . [we're living a good life in a wholesome town ~ or whatever]." We won't have to be afraid anymore or worry about our confidence in our personal safety being undermined.

I'm very tired right now, so not expressing myself so well, but I wanted to respond to you tonight. I read your message this morning, and it started off my day well. Thank you for assuring me that you'll let me know about Squidge.

~ Lizzy
smile
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Post by smile » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:14 am

My heart goes out to everyone words cannot express the sadness I feel. God Bless them all...............
Life is love so treasure every day.........
Mirek
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Location: Poznan, Poland

Post by Mirek » Sun Sep 04, 2005 11:59 am

Dem wrote:
Now:
Tell me Dem - is calling people "psychopaths" or "idiots" also a part of Greek culture?
It is.
In Greece we have a saying:
To call " the trough a trough and the fig a fig"
(i.e. to be honest and to call someone what it is.)
So I will keep calling the "psychopaths psychopaths and the idiots idiots"
OK - that's your choice. Although I think that calling someone that opposes you 'an idiot' is just the result of lack of arguments.
Do you think all Americans are responsible for Bush politics?
I believe that as long as they claim that they live in a democracy and continue to pay their taxes they are responsible for the politics of their Goverment.
So if you don't agree with the politics of YOUR government - why were you paying taxes when Greece was preparing for the Olympics.
Do you think that those poor people in New Orleans deserved such a tragedy?
No. I would prefer Katrina to had struck in Washington DC.
No comments.
What do you think of Saddam's politics? You've never mentioned your point of view - are you pro or con, as far as terrorism is concerned?
Saddam was a brutal dictator.
Helped and armed by the USA (and other countries) when he played their game.
Armed mostly by Russians - don't try to tell me that AK-47 was made in the US.
e.g. - do you feel responsible for so called Greek black colonels in the 40s, when thousands of Greeks had to leave their country? Was that also part of the Greek culture?
You need to read the Greek history better first and then ask questions like this.
That is NOT an answer, dear Dem. You haven't learned about the civil war in the 40s in YOUR country? I can't believe that. Or - probably you wouldn't like to remember that. That's just a short text to refresh your poor memory.

http://www.onwar.com/aced/data/golf/greece1944.htm

So please - don't be rude, 'cos I also can start to be rude - but that would lead us nowhere.
Before the Olympics in Athens thousands of homeless dogs were caught and murdered - is that also a part of the Greek culture?
It is true that before the Olympics stray dogs and cats were gathered from the streets.
There were rumors that manyof them were killed. The official answer is that this is not true.
Oh, yes!!! The OFFICIAL answer - you're absolutely right. Do you think officials would say "hey, yes we have killed all of them!"???
If they didn't - where are all those dogs and cats? Try to convince me that they're in some shelters. Approx. 20000 of dogs... do you really believe that your wonderful government has built 100 extra shelters for those animals?
If you can give me some hard evidence that the rumors are true I will be more than happy to condemn that.
I won't give you any evidence. I will ask YOU - where were all those dogs and cats taken? Wee're not talking about a hudred of them - we're referring to THOUSANDS!
Do you personally feel responsible for this?


No I don't.
I was and I still am against the Olympicstaking place in Greece.
It was a huge mistake for the country and I hadn't the slightest involment
in the organizing.
One simple question - do you pay taxes?

Mirek
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Dem
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Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2002 3:05 am

Post by Dem » Sun Sep 04, 2005 1:26 pm

Dear Μirek
Armed (i.e. Saddam)mostly by Russians - don't try to tell me that AK-47 was made in the US.
Armed also by Russians yes.
And French too (for example Mirage fighter planes)

But the knowledge and the materials for the development of chemical weapons that Saddam did have in the past and did use(Halajba) where sold to him as everybody knows by the USA and Britain.
(see for example:http://www.sundayherald.com/27572)
That is NOT an answer, dear Dem. You haven't learned about the civil war in the 40s in YOUR country? I can't believe that. Or - probably you wouldn't like to remember that. That's just a short text to refresh your poor memory.
I assure you dear Mirek I know the history of my country far better than you do (if not for any other reason just because I have attended a Greek school for twelve years and studied in a Greek University while I guess you haven't)

You were cought to have made a gaffe by mixing the colonels of the
60's with the civil war of the 40's.
So I don't have to add anything more.
Read first some basics in the Greek history.
Oh, yes!!! The OFFICIAL answer - you're absolutely right. Do you think officials would say "hey, yes we have killed all of them!"???
Please read carefully what I write.
I didn't say that I adopt the official view.
I just said what it is.
I won't give you any evidence. I will ask YOU - where were all those dogs and cats taken? Wee're not talking about a hudred of them - we're referring to THOUSANDS!
There is an ongoing discussion in Greece on the subject.
The major Greek newspaper "Eleftherotypia" had just recently a special
feature on it.
(http://www.iospress.gr/ios2005/ios20050710.htmunfortunately Greek text only)

Some are probably killed.
Others are deported to foreign countries.
And many of them are back in the streets.

When was the last time you visited Athens?

One simple question - do you pay taxes?
One simple answer-no I don't.

Dem
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