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Linda
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Post by Linda » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:52 pm

Dear Lizzytysh,
I am sure I have taken a stand on abortion on this message board before, possibly many different times, however that is neither here nor there.

This thread being the thread that was started, was not a thread dedicated to the Russian families, if it were (a funeral home has been used as an example) I would never have made that comment. That would have been totally deplorable. The comments made by someone else on this thread, fueled my comment also. No excuse however, it is a very sensitive thing and if Bee and others are so offended by my comment I appologize.
I think it is also deplorable to bring American politics into this. That was not my intent. If you think my views on terrorism and abortion is political you are wrong.

I don't feel right discussing this any further here, Jarkko is right about ending this thread


The death of those children is so sad there are no words to describe it, so let us no take any more away from that.
Last edited by Linda on Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Linda
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:53 pm

Yes, Helven, I know what you're saying. It sounds like Russia has now ['officially'] come under attack. Who knows whether or not we should be checking our construction/repair sites, as well. As Midnight has said or suggested, there are no limitations to what may yet come. Better to promote the goodwill that's possible, wherever it's possible, as things become more surreal by the day, everywhere around the world.

Love,
Elizabeth
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Post by bee » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:58 pm

Dear Helven~ these MF :twisted: Now- where is de KGB when u need them?
Take good care of urself
love
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Thu Sep 09, 2004 11:05 pm

Yes, I did not mean to neglect my personal concern for your own, personal safety, dear Helven :cry: . Very terrifying :cry: .

Love,
Elizabeth
Charles
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Post by Charles » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:03 am

Dear Lizzytysh, You wrote some very harsh judgemental posts to Linda.

Which makes it even more strange to me that you do not or have not processed Jurica's posts yet. It seems to me that his remarks would have warrented the same "in-depth" analyses. At least Linda was talking about saving "Life" not ending "Life". There is no "debris" in Jurica's delivery. He said exactly what he was thinking. You seem to be giving him a pass. Why? You are the senior and most prolific member of the Forum. You have addressed every issue under the sun. And yet you are silent when it come to the advocacy of terror. Why?
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Post by bee » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:48 am

Charles- there was a hurracane ChARLES over there in Flowridah- remember- and de Frances and now Ivan the Horrible!
Can't u understand -there was no electricity where Lizzy is? :cry:
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Dem
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Post by Dem » Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:56 am

Ladies and Gentlemen,

being the person who started this tread -and being already content with having the forum's record of starting the longest thread so far (If I am not wrong on that :) - I kindly request all of you to give an end to it as Jarkko suggested, if for not any other reason just because I find it extremely hypocritical to show our outrage for the Russian children killed by the terrorists but not for the Iraqi ones for example that are killed by the civilized governments.

At least as much hypocritical as to be so sensitive on the issue of abortion, while in the time it takes to write our anti-abortion postings, only a god knows how many children die in the World because they don't have a glass of milk when they wake up in the morning.


Thank you!
Dem
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Post by bee » Fri Sep 10, 2004 5:47 am

Dem~ u take care of these children in Greece, OK? So that they would have enough milk.
The children who died in Russia- they had the milk, but the terrorists came and killed them. That's all, nothing to do with milk.
USA Army did not go to kill the children in Iraq. Sadam Husein did. The children were starving under Saddam, when his own children were swimming in milk.
bee
Midnight
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Post by Midnight » Fri Sep 10, 2004 7:01 am

So far, I'm not sure what to make of his comments. It seems he's taken a very 'intellectual'/'detached' view of it all. I'm not sure how or why. I can tell that he's trying to make a point, his point.


An 'intellectual/detached' view of it all. That about sums it up. Most of the horrors of the past 20th century have come from the dark hearts of "detached intellectuals." It's their stock-in-trade. So, the Ph.d candidate who advocates terrorism is nothing new...and after all, he's just "trying to make his point."

It's those Minnesota housewives you gotta watch.
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Paula
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Post by Paula » Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:18 am

Dem it is not being hypocritical. Our comments on the Russian massacre are to do with the barbaric way human beings corralled a group of mainly children with the intention of deliberatly killing them. We all know that that act will caused reciprical murders probably directed at a similar target. Violence begets violence. If the chain is not broken there is no hope for mankind.

It doesn't mean we condone mass slayings in other parts of the world it just means the impact of this slaying was such it took our breath away.

When we all get to the stage that we consider life to be so cheap that we let an incident like that go uncommented on then we might as well give up on the world altogether.

As you say children are dying all over the world thru starvation, war, illness but that is a constant if we commented on that the forum would be awash every day with new reports. If this had happened in Iraq, Africa, America, India etc you would have still got the same response it was a heartfelt response about a henious barbaric act.
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Helven
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Post by Helven » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:10 pm

Dem, what hypocrisy are you talking about? We are ordinary women here (I mean those of us who are women, of course), we are not “iron maidens”, and if we don’t talk of everything that pains us, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t pain.


Dear Elizabeth, dear Bee, thank you!

Yeah, this KGB, ***** *** * ***…………………… You know, it’s already so habitual that state structures are interested in everything whatever they may be interested in - except the people’s safety… It’d be a big surprise, if it was otherwise…

But don’t worry about me; my personal safety is quite okay. Since I’m not in quite a good health, I’m sitting home, for the most part :roll: .

Dear Elizabeth, hold on! It’s so hard there now, too…

Love,
TH.
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:30 pm

Dear Linda ~

As you can see by the timing of our posts, I didn't see yours until just now. I wasn't ignoring it. I feel your carefully chosen words in response to my post [having no idea what you edited in or out] are very appropriate. I know you have strong feelings. I 'threw in' the American politics aspect to highlight the highly-contested thinking that surrounds the issue of abortion; my throwing it in had nothing to do with the core of what I was saying; and was just as inappropriate, in its way, as any other diversion. [Unfortunately, abortion and terrorism are, de facto, 'political' in this country.]

Even though the thread wasn't started as a memorium, it quickly became that after the torturous tragedy occurred. So, even though I disagree with your premise, regarding the appropriate/inappropriate context for the time/place of your comments, what you've said regarding your perspective on that at least puts your comments into perspective, and I appreciate your explanation. It helps me see that in your mind a line was being drawn, and your additional comments on the horror of it all underscore your sharing of our feelings regarding it. Thanks.

~ Elizabeth
Linda
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Post by Linda » Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:01 pm

The way the world is today and the people in it, the song Please Don't Pass me By comes to mind so often. We all, for the most part, are sitting in our velvet seats and doing nothing. No one has done enough.

If we can't all stop the hatred for one another, and unite to fight terrorism, I am very afraid for the future of the children of the world.

The housewives in Minnesota are uniting :)
Linda
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ForYourSmile
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Post by ForYourSmile » Sat Sep 11, 2004 2:06 am

Peace my friends,

The first thing, and I hope that it remains very clear, I'm terrified by Beslan's massacre. From my point of view pacifist I can neither deal nor justify this atrocity.

I wanted to write this before that is closed this topic, but I have something more to say after I have read here.

A crime of this magnitude produces a brutal hatred. When I read it I scare, the terrorists do not scare, with these words they grow bolder, it is a language that their crimes understand and justify. The violence generates violence. The vicious circle.

This environment is taken advantage by the governments in extremists' hands to do a warlike politics that will provoke more pain and new reactions. To satisfy some few ones that they seek economic and territorial expansion. These politicians without scruples know very well the electoral yield of the use of the anger. They are the teachers in the utilization of the terror. The patriots.

You've thrown the worst fear; that can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children, into the world
For threatennin' my baby, unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood, that runs in your veins

Master Of War. Bob Dylan 1963.

We cannot criminalize a religion or a nation. What will we do with the Chechenian people? Do we them deport again Siberia? Or we will continue exterminating them? Preventive war: let's kill the child in order that never clutches a weapon. This is more ancient than Rome. It is a horrifying crime, the child is still innocent and has not sinned originally. Hitler did not have reason.

I will put a candle for a Russian child together with other one for a Chechenian child.

I've seen the past, brother, is the murder.

I want to believe that the humanity advances positively, in spite of these terrible moments, there is more dignity now that fifty, hundred or thousand years ago. Let's check the History.

We have the solution to these conflicts: detention and judgment to the criminals and interposition of forces of peace. Ingenuous? Yes, the great power occupant does not tolerate this interference in his supposed space. Let's not be ingenuous, let's denounce the real problem.

Dissidents - absolutely necessary in a society in democracy or under a dictatorship. The absolute power will try to show them as traitors.

Abortion - A question of individual conscience.

More peace,
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh » Sat Sep 11, 2004 7:46 am

Dear Charles ~

The last verse of Story of Isaac from "Songs From A Room" is:

"And if you call me brother now,
forgive me if I inquire,
"Just according to whose plan?"
When it all comes down to dust
I will kill you if I must,
I will help you if I can.
When it all comes down to dust
I will help you if I must,
I will kill you if I can.
And mercy on our uniform,
man of peace or man of war,
the peacock spreads his [deadly] fan."

This verse has always struck me as an objectification of reality. The kind of matter-of-fact acknowledgement of what goes on in the world, always has, and [G~d help us] probably always will. When I read Jurica's posting, it was this same kind of 'distancing' that I felt. I didn't feel that he advocated killing, but that he lamented it full-circle. What he was saying was in the context of our discussion regarding terrorism.

I don't know what Jurica's experience has been with regard to witnessing war; however, that matter-of-fact attitude in regard to what occurs in war-torn areas is not uncommon. It's a very devastating and sad fact of life, but one that must be coped with in order to continue trying to live. It's a defense mechanism, a shutting down of the emotional sensors, for the sake of mental and emotional 'survival.' It seems to be a congealing resignation from "This is our life" down to "This is my life" and finally "This is life."

I've never known Jurica to be careless in attitude about people being killed or murdered, or even felt that he was pro-war, much less pro-terrorism. I do know that the views of people, whose countries are embroiled in conflict, have differing views regarding the 'right'/'wrong' and 'necessity' of killing. We are seeing it in Iraq right now. Some are grateful for the Americans and want them to stay and help protect their lives and interests. They seem to feel the loss of lives is an unavoidable given. Others detest the Americans and want them gone. They seem to feel that the loss of lives is abhorrent and unjustifiable. From all I've heard and read, the latter group outweighs the former, but they are still diametrically-opposed positions, by different citizens of the same country. I don't know what Jurica's seen in Croatia, but I do know that they were in conflict during the years 1991-1995. He wrote me privately, after you challenged me on my not having said anything about his postings; and I've asked him to post what he wrote to me, or give me permission to post it. I only got the chance to do that today, however, and haven't heard back from him yet.

The "debris" that I referred to were the things that make you wince until you look closer. To try to make my point, I'll highlight both those things, as well as the 'looking closer' ones .

"i don't know everything about this massacre 'cause i barely get to watch TV (only sports, mostly), but i can't condemn people on account of some 'moral' standards like - it's OK to kill grown ups, but not children, because they are innocent and good things (i don't know much psychology, but i do know enough to know that children are everything BUT).

For me, killing children is an extra measure of being inhumane and diabolical. They are defenseless beings, unable to protect themselves, and who haven't even had a chance at life yet. However, his comment suggests it's not OK to kill grown ups, either. I'm not sure where his attitude regarding the innocence of children comes from. I know when I was in school, we had to choose and defend a position on whether people [based on children] are inherently good or evil, by the scenarios that developed in the book Lord of the Flies. Children may be bratty, mean-spirited, or whatever, generally due to their environments and parental impact ~ but not to the extent that they should not come under the protection of the "'moral' standards," which Jurica feels shouldn't make a difference. Do children in war-torn countries tend to be different in the sense of being "innocent and good"? I don't know. They may pick up patterns of behaviour and attitudes from the adults around them that may make them appear to be 'guilty and bad'. I'd be interested to know on what Jurica bases his comment.

"i'm not happy with children being tortured and raped, but that's life. i'm not happy with grown-ups being tortured and raped either, but most of you approved that when it suited your purpose (like when Raegan gave 'new hope' to the US)." Perhaps I'm wrong, but this struck me as an attitude coming out of what Jurica has seen occur in his own country.

"and, Charles, in a way i do admire terrorists. they are people fighting for their belives. i don't approve their actions, but i can understand it." This is a philosophical statement and sentiment very similar to one that Leonard made himself at one point in his life.

"i can understand Iraq people bombing Spain and killing innocent people to make them stop killing their own brothers and sisters. and pressed to that extremes - i may do the same." This is a statement that relates to the feelings of powerlessness and ultimate frustration of having no control. It's what leads to the extremes of revenge coming from both sides, that endless avenging that has gone on for centuries in some parts of the world. He acknowledged the human element of it, and that it's in himself as well. The desire to protect loved ones can result in people killing each other, back and forth.

"you all are very quick to judge on account of some pathetic image of a soldier holding a baby in his hands (the hands that held the weapon that caused a lot of children to die because they would not negotiate, but rather risk whatever number of deaths just to sustain the order of things - where Putin stays the ruler of Chechenia), but you do nothing to help thousands of little children dying right now from starvation in Ethiopia or Somalia." I saw this statement as a kind of anger toward the fact that the massacre occurred at all, when the government had promised negotiation, and then [from what we were able to glean] had not followed through on that promise]. The final reference speaks on behalf of other children dying in gruesome ways [as well as being killed] in other places.

"i'm very sorry for not living up to your moral standards." I saw this was a defensive, sarcastic remark to underscore the lack of consistency in the feeling of outrage with regard to other children, as well as adults being killed other places, for other reasons.

The difference I saw between Jurica's comments and Linda's comments was that the unborn are not yet actively engaged in the process of living. I need to go further back to try to find what triggered Jurica's stance on the Russian school situation. For me, the torturers have gone beyond all understanding or hope of understanding of their actions. I share ForYourSmile's terror and Midnight's feelings of helplessness, and the lack of answers to it all. I agree with this: "A crime of this magnitude produces a brutal hatred. When I read it I scare, the terrorists do not scare, with these words they grow bolder, it is a language that their crimes understand and justify. The violence generates violence. The vicious circle." I agree with Linda's assessment that we sit in our velvet seats [I question whether Jurica sits in a velvet seat, or if his Croatian experience has given him a cement block, perhaps with nails protruding, to sit on]; yet, doing nothing, doing something, doing what? The people in Beslan aren't sitting in velvet seats, and surely must feel powerless, too. It grieved me tonite to hear that some Russians suspect corruption in the police forces, who they feel may be allowing the terrorist activities to occur. An even deeper sense of hopelessness follows such thoughts and fears.

I agree with many things that ForYourSmile has said here, but am feeling too tired and rather overwhelmed by this discussion [as well as by Ivan being out there, and my friend not here yet, if she's coming] to elaborate. I like that ForYourSmile feels there is a solution. I felt disheartened today hearing that actually convicting terrorists is abominably difficult.

I don't know if I've managed to adequately explain how I feel about Jurica's comments and remarks; and even if I have, it may still not be to anyone's satisfaction or agreement. However, I feel that you do [and have] 'known' him right along, Paula. I think it was his way of trying to point out the contrasts [and injustices] of "It's okay to kill there, but not here!?!" His stance is not that of the cold-blooded position [appearance] that some have picked up through his words.

For now, I'm just very tired and can't even think straight, anymore.

"I will put a candle for a Russian child together with other one for a Chechenian child." This for me signifies the tender and beautiful truth beneath it all.

Love,
Elizabeth
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