Wim Wenders' new film "The Land of Plenty"

News about Leonard Cohen and his work, press, radio & TV programs etc.
User avatar
Paula
Posts: 3152
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2002 1:20 am
Location: London

Post by Paula » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:53 pm

It would be a shame to close it down Jarkko. It is a well known fact women like a good argument doesn't mean they don't like each other. :lol:
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25464
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh » Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:00 pm

I find it quite clear that there cannot be a mutual understanding on certain basic questions; the members in our group come from all continents, they profess many religions, they have very different political views. After all, the answers to these questions reflect just our own cultural and social backgrounds and experiences in our lives.
Hi Jarkko ~

Whether or not you close this thread, I feel the point you make with the above [particularly the italicized portion] is crucial.

~ Elizabeth

Dear Bee ~

You're right that I don't pretend to know Russian history. However, taking a position of superiority over others is what concerns me. Prima dona'ism has its own kind of fascination, intrigue, and 'power,' but I've never sought to be one, nor do I have any interest in that direction. It's a matter of the heart.

The 'bedtime story' analogy/reference was not at all clear in the way you used it, initially, and the way you described it in great detail, subsequently. However, I still disagree with your conclusion based on it. I don't feel the Chechen population is responsible for what has occurred to all those children and adults who were victims.

As for history's means and methods of interpretation, people can't even agree on what current events 'mean' ~ much less what they will mean after time has passed; and/or people, who weren't even alive at the time, read what people who were alive at the time have chosen to write about them.

I do agree with you in regard to Linda's bringing up the abortion issue in the midst of this. It's her right to do so; yet, it's quite similar to being with someone who's at a funeral home grieving the death of someone who was murdered; and expressing sympathy, but following that sentiment with, "But, really, it's no different than all the lives lost today through abortion." When someone is grieving, they're not interested in the number of lives lost through other means for the same or other reasons. In the pet world [to show it through another lens], someone doesn't want to hear, "But, you still have two others;" or, "I'll get you another at the Humane Society today;" or, "It's just a cat/dog;" or, "Other people's pets die all the time."

The feelings that are being felt are being felt right then for a particular person/people/being ~ trying to shift them from those feelings to something else tends to be perceived as 'minimizing' the importance and legitimacy of their feelings of grief and their loss, for the reasons they are experiencing them in the moment. They don't care about what's happened for other reasons to other people during their own grieving process. Their feelings are consumed by what's happening to them in the moment. Trying to distract them from that and toward other things is most likely to bring only anger and feelings of not being understood or much cared about.

Now, I'll press Submit and see if this goes through.

~ Elizabeth
User avatar
Helven
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:29 am
Location: Hellespont

Post by Helven » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:09 pm

Dear Jarrko,

I, personally, have nothing against closing this thread.
After all, we really can "grapple" with each other somewhere else :wink: :lol: .

However, if my last two posts were "too much" in a certain sense, I offer my apologies to everyone who can be insulted by them. I intentionally have been restraining for a long time from participating in discussions upon "around-al-qaedian" themes since I knew I'd use a kind of rather "heavy artillery", but just wasn't able to resist...

...just a couple of words in the end. Yes, I don't feel comfortable, too, when someone praise some nations in comparison with others. But at the same time I respect deeply those who keep their culture and language in some hard circumstances. And I respect also those who know how to value their own culture. A certain kind of ambivalence always present in all of that... The main thing is that what prevails.

Yours,
TH.
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:12 pm

Lizzy, thanks to te Lord you're still there :D Already wanted to send you an E-m~ was wondering perhaps de Frances has hit you or something like that!
Darling, don't know what was that about prima donna's :roll:(did you mean me? moa?) You know I like to stir things a bit up, shake a bit. Otherwise it feels boring, did not mean to reproach you on Russian History. Doesn't matter really, I know you have the best intentions at heart.
Paula is right, we can argue as much as we like to, same time we could like each other as well.
What Jarkko wants to do with this thread, it's up to him, either way.
Lizzy~ perhaps you can brew up a new thread- let's say- what do you think about de "Dear Heather" album jacket?
I would say, I completely hate it- it is so 60s etc.
And if you would say dearest, you love it- I will figtht you to de nail :wink:
love
bee
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:25 pm

Dear Helven, not at all, your posts were very good and informative.
Jarkko is just concerned perhaps, how far would we go into politics of the day :roll:
bee
Midnight
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:29 am

Post by Midnight » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:15 pm

Dear Jarkko,

This is your site. Believe me, I am saying this very respectfully. But this quote
After all, the answers to these questions reflect just our own cultural and social backgrounds and experiences in our lives.
is the kind of thinking that I find so disquieting about the modern mind. There is no objective truth. There are no "real" answers...only our "experiences". Truth is amorphous...changing from culture to culture. Searching and contending for the truth is useless because the answers are by definition only a reflection of our social conditioning.

If this is ultimate reality...then Jurica and the Grand Inquistor are right...everything is permissible. Everything.
Linda
Posts: 557
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:10 pm
Location: USA

Post by Linda » Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:33 am

My point is being made ridiculous again. Stretching it a bit far don't you think Liz.
Linda
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee » Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:46 am

Dear Linda!
I am sure Lizzy did not mean to ridicule your point at all.
She just tried to explain it much better as I did, why I thought of your subject as improper under this particular circumstance.
I just was unable to get to the point as easy as she did.
She explained my point very well. There isn't any offense or ridicule at all. Just different opinion, dat's all.
love
bee
Charles
Posts: 90
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2003 1:42 am

Post by Charles » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:26 am

You are so right Midnight. That is a brilliant point you made about truth.

And Lizzytysh, my friend, I have to point out that Linda did not make her statement about abortion to a "grieving" person at a funeral home. Your anaolgy is a little unfair to her. Especially in light of the fact that you have chosen to totally ignore the terrible things that Jurica wrote. You have made no comments until now. I wondered at your silence. You broke it only so you could reprimand Linda????
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee » Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:54 am

Charles- I agree with you, Midnight made a really brilliant point. I felt it, but did not know what was bothering me till Midnight said it 8)
bee
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25464
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh » Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:37 pm

My silence, Charles, has been hurricane related. My house remains without electricity, since Sunday, maybe Saturday afternoon. I can't remember which it was here. It's Thursday morning here, and yesterday was my first day back to work, where there is electricity.

I don't feel my 'equation' is all that extreme regarding Linda's comments. The reality is that there is no literal equation, so it's necessary to go to the 'next best possible' way of explaining my and others' positions on it. There are differences between the two situations ~ the slaughter in Russia and abortion. I'm not ready for an all-out discussion on the latter. We're already embroiled enough in the current events, and the abortion issue is ongoing, and a political hot potato in the current election, with Bush relying on anti-abortionists for huge blocks of votes.

However, some of the major differences are that: (1) There is and has been much dispute as to when 'life' begins. (2) There is and has been much dispute as to when the 'soul' enters the body. (3) I am not advocating abortion ~ but need to say this, for the purpose of elucidating the contrasts I'm making ~ when I say that the reality is that the aborted fetuses have never been born. (4) Using #3 to make my point, the slaughtered children and adults have already been born into families and have obtained viable life. They are already part of an active web and network of family, friends, and community. The bonds are intense [and I am not minimizing the mother's and father's bonds with the yet-unborn child in the womb when I say that, as I know they are intense as well, yet still very different]. The adults were someone's mother and father, with probably others who relied on them for support and love. They were adults probably actively maintaining families and holding down jobs in the community. The family and social networks were already in place. (5) There are people here who are experiencing the trauma of this on a visceral level that relates to our humanity and feelings of safety in this world. We are seeing the images. We are reading about children and adults being placed into makeshift graves in the damp ground. To some people "The news is the news." To others, its content is taken to heart, and on a deeper level to soul. Regardless of one's feelings on abortion, it's not the time or the place to once again [there have been other opportunities which Linda has seized to introduce her 'personal' ~ albeit shared by others ~ agenda on this issue] introduce this issue 'out of the blue.' Who the hell was talking about abortion, anyway? We were talking about a horrific incident in the country of at least one of our members here. Her comment minimized the importance of those lives and the tragedy of their loss. Her comment came across as what she felt to be most important, after having given what by contrast [given the context] appeared to be 'lip service' to the tragedy itself ~ along the lines of, "Oh, that's just terrible, but the loss wasn't in vain, as it'll help our fight [Bush's 'fight'] against terrorism, and the loss was really no different than all the loss of life as a result of abortion. And who's concerned with abortion!?!" Her only comment leading up to it was that 'all these lives were not lost in vain' ~ which had already raised some hackles, as it presumably would mean terrorism [bargaining and such with them] would be impacted through the fact of these 350+ deaths, and how they came about via bargaining/negotiating or not bargaining/negotiating. So, by extension, one could assume that the murdering of a doctor/staff of Planned Parenthood clinics would be 'justifiable' as that might impact abortion? But, the content of this thread hadn't metamorphed into the launching into of abortion issues, anyway. Her comment remained one of 'diversion' away from the tragedy and senselessness of what happened in Russia. The funeral home [yet, yes, the world is experiencing the sense of being at a funeral home right now] analogy may not be spot on, it is 'greater,' as we aren't literally at one, but it does relate to loss of people's lives; the pets analogy is 'lesser' because this is loss of humans, not pets. Somewhere between the two lies the offensiveness of interjecting the diversion of abortion into this very-real-to-the-world-stage tragedy.

I've known Jurica here for a couple years. Our interactions have not always been a matter of agreement, but they have been respectful. I have not commented on his comments as I'm still trying to process them. Others have been adequately addressing his comments to the extent that I didn't feel compelled. So far, I'm not sure what to make of his comments. It seems he's taken a very 'intellectual'/'detached' view of it all. I'm not sure how or why. I can tell that he's trying to make a point, his point. I'm trying to get past the debris of its delivery to understand it. The only view I can personally take of this inhumane tragedy is that it's unspeakably horrific and absolutely without justification. This siege was planned long in advance in a most diabolical way and fashion. It has virtually 'destroyed' an entire, close-knit town ~ and for what!?! Really ~ for what!?! What has been gained for their 'cause' ~ however just or unjust it may be!?! This was in-your-face reality.

That's the best I can answer your questions at this time. I'm at work, and have already taken almost two hours, out of what should have been work time, to answer your concerns, Charles.

~ Elizabeth
Linda
Posts: 557
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:10 pm
Location: USA

Post by Linda » Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:49 pm

For crying out loud. I am in :shock:
Linda
bee
Posts: 918
Joined: Thu Apr 08, 2004 6:28 am
Location: San Francisco, USA
Contact:

Post by bee » Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:10 pm

Lizzy, thank you- perfect! Exactly how that felt!
Linda~ please admit that Lizzy is right- that's how it felt to me, I suppose also to Paula and some other people.
that's the honest truth.
bee
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25464
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh » Thu Sep 09, 2004 9:31 pm

Dear Linda ~

I'm not asking that you admit that I'm right. I'm only asking that you acknowledge [even if only to yourself] how your comments may have been perceived by others [and, in fact, were by at least several]. Even though Charles believes that I jumped in only to "reprimand" you, I don't feel that my comments regarding your comments have been "reprimanding" in nature. In fact, I did not comment when you initially stated that you ended up feeling that these lives were not lost in vain, as I knew what you were 'going for' when you said that. When lives are lost, it is natural to want it to be with a 'purpose' of some sort, even if it's an after-the-fact, 'stretch' of a purpose. Some purpose is better than none. The idea of lives lost in vain, particularly that many, is very difficult to deal with emotionally. I can understand your desire to have this tragedy to not have been in vain. I can't understand how you concluded that it wasn't. However, since I felt I understood what your intent was, I chose not to comment, at all, much less "reprimand."

However, when your additional comments came, I felt compelled to comment, due to their cumulative effect or impact regarding the situation as a whole, and people's heartfelt feelings and comments about it all. I tried to be respectful in addressing it. I've tried not to make it a personal 'attack' thing when I've commented on your own comments. I haven't gone into name calling or desultory or insulting remarks about you as a person.

Your most recent comment still suggests that you feel I'm totally off base regarding all of it. It's difficult to describe how 'myopic' and 'oblivious to the real issue at hand' your comments came across to me. I see that Bee has understood what I'm trying to say. I'm not sure about others. What I was trying most to do was to express my own feelings about it; and I'm still not even sure whether I've 'nailed' it with my attempts to do that. 'Seeing' an anti-abortion placard thrust amidst all those grieving faces simply came across as an out-of-place, self-serving, political comment. Again, I'm not sure how to best describe the impact of reading it. You're not the only one in shock; and I'm not just referring to reading your comments. I'm also referring to the horror of what happened, and people trying to make sense of it all, whilst they are forced to try to imagine what it had to be like in the minds and emotions of those children and adults trapped in that gymnasium; what it is like now trying to retrieve the bodies and remains of their loved ones; what it is like going through 350+ burials; and what it is like trying to deal with their confusion with and anger toward their own government [as that's an issue there, as well].

I can't recall whether you injected/interjected the abortion issue into/with regard to the September 11 tragedy here. I don't recall your doing it up front, but you may have expressed those sentiments further down the line [that does ring a bell of some sort]. Or, perhaps, I'm thinking of the Iraq War and some other threads [issues] with regard to your having made similar comments.

~ Elizabeth
User avatar
Helven
Posts: 300
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 1:29 am
Location: Hellespont

Post by Helven » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:33 pm

I’m trying to choose some correct words and phrases to express that what I feel now, but I can’t… Some trash runs through my head – something like this phrase from one old cartoon film, “Guys, let’s hit it off!” Life is so short, and there’s so much pain… Well… I’d be better to keep silent otherwise I’ll write a lot of platitudes again.

But I can say it seems that our “machos” decided to set themselves to us quite seriously this time. This horror in Beslan, those previous acts of terrorism… Today I heard our special services have found explosives in a cinema here, in St. Petersburg, not so far from the place where I live… It repaired, too, and these explosives were brought to it. They, obviously, started to check repaired/repairing buildings here after that what happened in Beslan, and found it. That still wasn’t enough for them…

…And regarding truth… not so that there’s no truth, it’s simply very, very difficult to be objective. Our opinions are always influenced by some personal experiences, cultural stereotypes, and so on, and so forth. It’s really difficult to be impartial in our judgments. It seems to me Jarkko meant something like that…

Yours,
TH.
Post Reply

Return to “News”