Muffins or War

This is for your own works!!!

Muffins (lightly toasted with perhaps a little strawberry jelly) or a *just* War with not very many casulaties

I prefer a Just war
15
21%
I prefer just muffins
57
79%
 
Total votes: 72
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Byron
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Post by Byron » Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:08 pm

Many emerging world families rely on the wages of their children. Those families would suffer if the children were to be prevented from working. Therefore, are we all caught in a cleft stick? :(
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Post by Byron » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:09 pm

For some light relief, (not), some of you might be interested in the following link, which is new today, from The British Library. I've just had a quick browse, which was enough for me to realise that a lot of time would be needed to do the masterpiece any justice. As a piece of history, it is unique. Enjoy.

http://www.bl.uk/treasures/caxton/homepage.html

Byron 'sends his regards.'
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Post by Byron » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:26 pm

I vote for muffins, and to hell with the consequences. 8)
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Post by lizzytysh » Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:26 pm

"Those families would suffer if the children were to be prevented from working." Very true, Byron.

~ Elizabeth
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Post by Byron » Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:08 pm

Elizabeth, the Industrial Revolution in this country saw much needed legislation by enlightened politicians being introduced after Factories Inspectors reported to Parliament about the terrible working conditions that young children were having to endure. Many children died in the factories, mines, mills etc., while many others were so badly injured and maimed by the machinery and working conditions, that they could no longer work. The governments of the time passed laws to regulate the age, hours of working, and conditions for young people. Many, many families continued to send their children to work in complete disregard of the laws because they would have starved. The developing world is going through the same quandaries as my ancestors did a couple of hundred years ago. The more things change, the more they stay the same. :cry:
Last edited by Byron on Sat Oct 25, 2003 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Post by lizzytysh » Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:17 pm

Yes, Byron, what you've described happened here, too. [It took me a minute to realize that you were talking about England!] It was and is very sad.

~ Elizabeth
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Post by Kush » Fri Oct 24, 2003 11:38 pm

As a medical researcher I am concerned about the misrepresented facts especially re' corporations, pharmaceutical companies etc that gets irresponsibly posted on this site and passed off as fact. There is a lot going around..please read up before you post something.
No academic cocoon. That is another of the convenient cliches from another generation. Last week I was at a fundraising dinner and symposium. We raised over 1 million dollars for schizophrenia research at the dinner. Every dollar of the 1 million goes to the non-profit organization that hosted the dinner (for grants, research etc) becoz' the event itself and the symposium the next day along with our airfares, hotel accomodation, food was completely taken care of by a for-profit pharmaceutical company that works with us. The administrative staff costs of the organization is also taken care of by another for-profit pharmaceutical company. I also had the opportunity to meet a few patients and donors (who are usually relatives of patients). This is not the age of railing against the establishment, corporations etc.....we work together. This is not the age to change the system but to focus on the positives and build on them. Companies are imperfect and flawed because individuals within them are imperfect and flawed. Are you perfect?
Look after yourself, those closest to you and then spread out the money.
Bill Gates will probably go down as the greatest philanthropist in history. I also think that Americans are the biggest private donors to the third world, but I do not know for sure.
check this out:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Sto ... 83,00.html

And if you complain all the time, you only spread misery. You can sit at your computer and complain at the state of the world or you can get out there and make a difference. As Paula put it in any way you can. You can read up the facts and make a difference to yourself. You can listen. I remember the words of a former female CEO of Lucent Technologies "The greatest thing I learnt is to listen to people."
Perhaps it is time to throw these words at the generation (rather certain members of it) that created them: Please do not criticize what you don't understand, your old order is rapidly fading.
Oh, and please get out of the way if you can't lend your hand, coz' the times they are a-changing.

p.s. Lizzytysh...the Walker Sings Brel CD will be on it's way tomorrow. Since there are only 9 songs in it I've filled the rest with his own compositions. And now I'll be away for awhile so have a great weekend.
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Post by lizzytysh » Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:22 am

Hi Kush ~

No one can afford the time to research everything they say before posting it. However, one cannot discount articles they've read and reports they've heard, throughout the years, about "overlooked" research, and misrepresentation of medical facts. The things that come out much later ~ after cigarettes are "found" to be lethal, and it was found to be in the research from the beginning [as an example]. The things you hear on the news. I am not saying that you or your colleagues would ever be inclined to do these kinds of things; only that these kinds of things have happened in your field. I'm not sure how all the cover-ups come into being ~ how files get lost, misplaced, ignored, or however that "just-people-doing-their-jobs" thing happens. All I know is that corruption happens, and that there are many roads which lead to it. Some of those roads can bring people/organizations into proximity with it, close enough to have a real [deleterious] effect on the overall integrity. I know it's [the corruption], generally, incremental. The cover-ups are more blatantly corrupt.

The relationships that build over time are not always so benign, or in the best public interest for schizophrenia research. One example might be the for-profit pharmaceutical companies that financed your fundraising dinner and symposium. Who might stand to gain the most, once further, additional drugs are determined to be potentially effective? You're right that corporations/companies/bureaucracies/all of it are comprised of individuals. That's why those "individual" relationships are fostered ~ the paid-for hunting trips, the cruises, the big dinners, the gifts, the financing of dinners and symposium [usually in posh surroundings, with the finest dinnerware and meals]. When it comes time to naming particular drugs as effective, guess who gets honourable mention. When the patients are talking with their doctors and want to at least try [can't forget that there are doctors who will just prescribe, prescribe, prescribe ~ per patient's request] a particular drug, which manufacturer do you think will stand out most in their mind?

I haven't been in medical research; however, I have been in social services. In-service trainings are required and, when one was given and hosted by a particular mental-health facility, it was glaringly obvious to all attendees [much discussion took place regarding it prior to the training, and on breaks/lunch], that the purpose of the training/seminar was "seduction" ~ seduction to induce us to refer clients to their facility. It was blatant and shameful. The intended learning was totally secondary to the high-gloss booklet and trinkets and all, ad nauseum, that related to their facility. The 1st-class-hotel calibre serving pieces and the fine china we drank out of were only the beginning. This was not a generation ago, either.

When I worked for a state representative for several years, I took note of the various kinds of "free"s that came his way. Yes, they certainly work together. The question is toward what end. I'm not trying to discount the possibly well-intended sponsoring by the for-profit pharmaceutical company. However, I am trying to stress that they have much to gain by building lots of rapport, and "owingness" as they go.

Sorry for not trusting all that appears to some to be above board. Yet, just this morning, on NPR, I was hearing about more corporations [a rather long list, in fact] ~ Bank of America, being the one I can remember ~ with regard to "illegal"/less-than-honourable trading, to the detriment of the customer [the regular guy] and to the benefit, of guess who[?]........ One of the situations [2 were described] I think is called "delayed trading" ~ after the afternoon bell has rung and all trading is to have ceased. I can't remember what the other is, but if you haven't heard about it yet, you definitely will.

I agree the research on schizophrenia needs to be done. I just don't see the picture that you've painted as a flawless one.

I'm glad to hear that Walker Sings Brel will be enroute soon :D Thanks for filling it out with more of Brel ~ the cd sounds like it'll bring much pleasure. Thank you :D ! Probably too late to tell you to have a good weekend, so instead, hope you had a good one :) !

~ Lizzytysh
Last edited by lizzytysh on Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kush » Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:52 am

Ah..I'm still here....no I meant I filled the rest with Walker compositions.
As for your other response...I don't feel like carrying out this conversation that you keep focussing on everything negative. That is not my style. Moreover, my professional bond with pharmaceutical companies is infinitely greater than my bond with you (although I do not own or have ever owned shares and stuff like that, I am ot a businessman). Indirectly they are my livelihood.
Yes, atleast partly I do the work I do coz' I like the good life, I enjoy the good things in life and I work for it. If that is too selfish for you, so be it.
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Post by lizzytysh » Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:00 am

Now, hold up there....who called anyone "selfish," much less "too selfish"? I don't understand your last, two sentences, at all. Were you talking to me? I don't mean to be focusing on the negatives; I'm just not giving the mega-million dollar corporations and companies credit for being peaches-and-cream altruistic in nature. Although I loved what I was doing there, and had many good things to say about my role, I certainly recognized the "corruption" within the agency where I worked.

[Conversation just overheard between co-workers]: Two women talking about how they wouldn't deal with all the traffic to go to a football game, only to sit in the parking lot, to "tailgate" (for anyone interested, this is a term for partying with a small group to a large group, in the parking lot at large events, by pulling open the back of your vehicle, to get to the beer/wine cooler and snacks, sandwiches, etc. inside). One of the women comments that her husband's going to the game with co-workers, even though he doesn't want to "....because he's trying to make [be promoted to] general manager." Male co-worker, "Oh, now that's smart, now......" ~ the relationships are formed, the promotions obtained. Not saying anything here that most people don't know ~ only that it also plays into situations like with the pharmaceutical companies above.]

Well, since I've never heard Walker, more of him is just fine ~ and a better chance to get to know him! Since he's apparently done a creditable, admirable job with Brel's songs, I'm even more certain his own are super, too. Thanks for the chance to get to know a new artist :D . Raffi will be bowing his way to you soon, too :) .

~ Lizzytysh
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Post by Makera » Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:01 am

Too much NPR definitely, absolutely, ain't good for you.
(Translation for Brits: National Public Radio = Left wing whinging 'academics' on government funding)
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Post by songster » Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:35 pm

Kush, I once worked (in a very lowly capacity) at an outpatient psychiatry clinic for a medical college. Have you ever ever read the Sci-fi short story, Beyond Bedlam? It's one of my favorites. Although I think the author was mistaken in his concept of what schizophrenia was all about.
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Post by lizzytysh » Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:11 pm

"Interesting," plagiaristic commentary and conclusion.

Translation for anyone with regard to NPR: National Public Radio.......Balanced reporting ~ gives both sides......in-depth coverage, versus snippets and soundbytes.....not owned by, and therefore not beholden to, the skewedly-pro-government, corporate-type owners of the major broadcasting companies ~ including ABC, NBC, and CBS.....intelligent reportage vs. pablum [simplistic, one-dimensional].

Keep my dial on NPR and doing fine, thank you.

~ Elizabeth [alive and well with NPR]
Last edited by lizzytysh on Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by lizzytysh » Sat Oct 25, 2003 4:15 pm

Kush ~

Still haven't figured out the "selfish" comment. I have no issue with how much you do or don't earn. The kind of person you are is what makes the difference with me. My comment regarding the scanning of my annual, tax form was referencing the line on it where the tax-deductible, charitable contributions are noted.

~ Elizabeth
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Post by Byron » Sat Oct 25, 2003 6:49 pm

There is no irony in the following question.
Neither is there a 'positioning' of this writer with any other writer in the forum.
Just stop for a moment and read my last 2 sentences twice again. This question is one which has been bubbling away at the back of my mind for quite a long time and relates to matters raised in the forum.
I have noticed (in an objective way) that it is not uncommon, for contributers to raise matters in the forum from programmes seen and/or heard on independent broadcasting stations, of TV and radio.
The subjects of the broadcasts have been diverse. From economics, social issues, politics, international relations and inter-racial relations, to celebrities and politicians. To name but a few.
I find a certain repetitive response can be expected whenever matters relating to the capitalist system of progress in the USA is questioned.

Can anyone explain to me why it is that if someone politely draws our attention to a programme/article/review, which looks at the ethos, morals, ethics of 'the American, and sometimes British, way' of doing things, the cry goes up about left wing, pinko, socialist, communist attacks on the 'flag'?

The 'flag' in this case being my way of representing all things good and wonderful about the USA. I repeat, there is no irony in this question. The reaction is always the same and as if Pavlov had trained a group of people to jump up and start shouting "left wingers" as soon as anyone questions the motives of THEIR LEADERS.
If you don't agree with another person's view, then why not give your considered reasons and not a verbal/written 'LABEL'.
Where is the thirst for knowledge which I have come to expect in this forum, as for example, when we all look at lc and his words and his meanings within those words?
Challenge everything and accept nothing as true.
Especially your own preconceptions about what you believe to be right and true.
Shouting names and handing out labels across the ether, doesn't enrich anyone's mind. Not in my home it doesn't.
I heard a learned woman say, "When we have a right wing government we should read left wing newspapers. When we have a left wing government we should read right wing newspapers." (She is an English woman and Professor, who lectures in an English university after gaining her Doctorate in America)
That is why in Britain, we have what is called 'Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition.' They are not in power, but they are there to question her government, at every opportunity, on her behalf. The system works, because those involved in it, understand the necessity to interrogate the people in power, as a reasonable check and counter-balance, to ambitions for absolute power.
To those who may not agree with my last paragraph, all I will say is that the system has worked for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years. Minds which were a thousand times more lucid and intelligent than any of us, have tested the system and the system remains.
This contribution is not an attack on the American way of life and politics. Neither is it an advert for the British way of life and politics. It is a simple question about name calling without substantive responses to those who are being called names. Whether they be to the left or right of the political argument.
Shakespeare says through one of his ciphers, "Methynks the lady dost protest too much."
I, like him, have to question why the shout goes up so quickly and so loud. Is there an inherent fear of discovering what the Truth really is?
Byron 'sends his regards.'

Answers on a postcard or sealed envelope to your nearest Professor in Politics at your local university. :roll:
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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