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Despite the clear advantages to using the Socratic Method (and I highly recommend that everyone ought to try it from time to time, testing some of their beliefs to see if they have a firm foundation of logic and rationality, and not accepting things without question), I am also very much open to another possibility, namely: there may be an entire realm (or realms) of existence and experience, full of its own truths and bursting with meaning, but which is not at all accessible through the framework of rational enquiry and logic. Wittgenstein and Kierkegaard come to mind, and they suggest that perhaps a person may find the truths of this other realm (or at least, gain access to it) by abandoning philosophy (that is, abandoning the methodologies of pure reason and logic), and instead, looking into their heart, using their emotions, being open to truths and meaning that are obtainable by non-rational means and experiences (whatever those means and experiences may be).

In other words, as enlightening as logical, rational enquiry can be (and I have no doubt that one can learn an awful lot from it), it does seem to have its own inherent dogma (if one insists that it is the only way to obtain truth), in that, anything that fails the "reason and logic" test is rejected. But, such an approach fails to recognise that non-rational, non-logical things can be as real and as meaningful (perhaps even more meaningful) to a person than those found within the realm of pure reason.

To me, reason and logic are like keys: they open certain locks, specific doors -- locks and doors that possibly cannot be opened by any other key, and which lead to places one can only get by using those keys. But, that does not preclude the existence of locks and doors to different places, which require different keys to open them (and which cannot be opened by the reason/logic keys). And, maybe there are some locks and doors that can be opened by a variety of keys, that is, truths that can be obtainable through a variety of means (and maybe some truths have many doors, such that it does not matter how one gets there, as long as they find their way through one of the doors, using one of the possible keys).

Being open to various possibilities -- even those of which one has yet to encounter or conceive -- and thus being prepared to admit that one is wrong and to change one's beliefs accordingly, is the best way to avoid becoming a victim of dogma and indoctrination*. Perhaps in that way, each of us becomes our own arbiter.

* Incidentally, traditionally, those who advocate and enforce truly dogmatic assertions tend never to change their beliefs (not openly, anyway), and it is often the case that "truth" is less important to them than the "power" they obtain by enforcing their dogma over those whom they have indoctrinated.

Lisa, I am a bit out of my element here, but followed everything you wrote, and my eyes never glazed over.

LisaLCFan wrote: ↑Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:53 pm There is a possibility (which Plato acknowledged or at least implied) that nobody will ever obtain knowledge of the forms (in one's corporeal lifetime, anyway), but by maintaining a healthy skepticism towards general knowledge and using the Socratic Method throughout one's life, by questioning and examining and assessing one's beliefs (and the beliefs of others), one can, as far as possible, not hold too many false beliefs, and one may even hold a few true ones (even if knowing with certainty is not possible).

That seems like a good recipe to follow in the kitchen of life.

I try to follow the Socratic Method--especially the healthy skepticism part--but admit I am sometimes lazy and stray to mere opinions. I will try to remember Plato's biting definition of opinions.

its4inthemorning wrote: ↑Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:29 am ... I will try to remember Plato's biting definition of opinions.

An easy way to remember is to think of the word "opinionated" -- it is usually not a compliment!

Geoffrey wrote: ↑Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:38 am https://youtu.be/hVlYMctb7Y4

I didn't realise that Dirty Harry was a Platonist!

There's another good way to remember, Mr. 4-in-the-morning!

LisaLCFan wrote:
>I didn't realise that Dirty Harry was a Platonist!
----------------
well, it seems he was - but it's hard to know for sure
https://youtu.be/OkVpMAbNOAo

Geoffrey wrote: ↑Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:48 am ... it's hard to know for sure
https://youtu.be/OkVpMAbNOAo

If you are truly interested in this sort of thing, one of the most fascinating plays I ever saw was "Copenhagen" by Michael Frayn, which provides an account of a meeting between Werner Heisenberg and Niels Bohr in 1941. I absolutely loved the play, and subsequently read it in book form (it is also available as a film, a BBC production, which I've not yet seen). It is absolutely riveting, intellectually stimulating, and exciting -- a wonderful mix of physics, philosophy, psychology, and ethics. Highly recommended!

LisaLCFan wrote>
>If you are truly interested in this sort of thing, one of the most fascinating plays I ever saw was "Copenhagen" by Michael Frayn, which provides an account of a meeting between Werner Heisenberg and Niels Bohr in 1941. I absolutely loved the play, and subsequently read it in book form (it is also available as a film, a BBC production, which I've not yet seen). It is absolutely riveting, intellectually stimulating, and exciting -- a wonderful mix of physics, philosophy, psychology, and ethics. Highly recommended!
---------------
thank you. it sounds rather intriguing. there doesn't appear to be any free file sharing or streaming site currently offering 'copenhagen - 2002', but i will endeavour to find it. there are a number of movies dealing with quantum mechanics, the most recent (viewed by myself) being 'coherence - 2013'.

by the way, concerning additional pictures to the gallery: i am on an indeterminate break, whether long or short remains to be seen, therefore no more portraits for the time being. a great deal of energy is being used on an exhausting itinerary consisting primarily of restaurant visits, social parties, attending gatherings with friends, and 'entertaining'(!) ladies. no doubt it will be possible to curb this lifestyle in due course, as it can be quite taxing - so let's be patient and see what transpires

LisaLCFan wrote>

one of the most fascinating plays I ever saw was "Copenhagen" by Michael Frayn, which provides an account of a meeting between Werner Heisenberg and Niels Bohr in 1941. I absolutely loved the play, ...

Ditto, ditto, ditto.
Unfortunately the play was only produced for a brief time locally and we only managed to get tickets for a morning matinee (is there such a thing?) It was strange to exit the theatre into bright sunlight.
I would have loved the opportunity to see it again.
I must look up the other versions, thank you Lisa.

Alan

AlanM wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 1:58 am ...thank you Lisa.

You are very welcome! As it turns out, I have just watched the BBC film version of Copenhagen (I managed to obtain a copy on DVD after mentioning it yesterday), and it is definitely worth seeking out. It has a rather different visual atmosphere compared to the austere set of the stage play, but the dialogue still remains the focus, as it should be. Scintillating stuff!

As for a morning matinee -- obviously they exist, since you attended one! And, I suppose that it would be etymologically more accurate than a performance in the afternoon, "matin" being "morning" in French (which hadn't really occurred to me until you mentioned it. I wonder if the original matinees were in the mornings?).

Cheers!

Thank you again, Lisa.
I have found the book on Amazon, but can I just check with you that it is written in novel form, rather than in script form. In my view scripts are meant to be performed by someone else for me to see and hear.
I take your point about matinee and matin. I thought the same after I had sent my post into the ether.
I have also tracked down the DVD, but it is region 2 (UK) and I will have to check if I can play it here.
It could be interesting to see Daniel Craig not being James Bond.

Regarding Socrates, a few years ago I read an English translation of Plato's Republic and enjoyed it so much, when I had finished, I started it again straight away. There are many books that I have read a second time but extremely few that I read immediately after completion. Intriguing stuff and so valid for today's world.

Best wishes,

Alan

AlanM wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:25 am Thank you again, Lisa.
I have found the book on Amazon, but can I just check with you that it is written in novel form, rather than in script form. In my view scripts are meant to be performed by someone else for me to see and hear.
...
I have also tracked down the DVD, but it is region 2 (UK) and I will have to check if I can play it here.
It could be interesting to see Daniel Craig not being James Bond.

Hi Alan! The book is published in dialogue format, script form, not novel form. I agree that it is best to hear someone else speaking the words -- it can seem rather flat just to read them on a page -- but it's better than nothing, I suppose! Of course, when you read it, you can always give each character a different voice, in your head, or even read it out loud that way -- I sometimes do that when I read, it brings the words to life!

The DVD I have is region 1 (North America -- bought from amazon.ca), but that probably wouldn't work for you, either. It is a nuisance that DVDs are coded for different countries (and different players) -- whose brilliant idea was that?

The dialogue is so interesting that I barely noticed that it was Daniel Craig!

AlanM wrote: ↑Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:25 am ...Regarding Socrates, a few years ago I read an English translation of Plato's Republic and enjoyed it so much, when I had finished, I started it again straight away. There are many books that I have read a second time but extremely few that I read immediately after completion. Intriguing stuff and so valid for today's world.

I am glad to hear that you enjoyed it so much! Indeed, The Republic is such a fascinating book, there are so many ideas presented that I think that one could easily read it countless times and still acquire more and deeper insight each time.

My Ancient Greek is pretty rusty, although I did read a bit of it when I was a student, and the fun thing about Plato that one loses in translation is that he had a wry sense of humour and often used puns and other plays on words that are quite amusing in the original Greek!

And of course, reading Plato is like reading a play, so you've had some practice, if you choose to buy Copenhagen!

Cheers!

Thank you Lisa for returning this forum to the competing artistic merits of different ice-creams. Leonard Cohen, known elsewhere as Mister Softee, will be highly pleased.

solongleonard wrote: ↑Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:47 pm Thank you Lisa for returning this forum to the competing artistic merits of different ice-creams. Leonard Cohen, known elsewhere as Mister Softee, will be highly pleased.

Personally, I find Häagen-Dazs ice-creams to be too heavy -- I prefer a lighter consistency in my ice cream treats, a bit more on the ice-milk side, such as gelato. However, it is very important that these lower-fat treats not be overwhelmed by sugar/sweeteners, which I like even less than a high fat content.

That is the problem, I have found, with many lower-fat treats: they are packed full of sugar and/or other sweeteners, completely ruining the taste (as well as the nutritional value). Yoghurt, for example, used to be a tart and healthy thing to eat, something that one bought at health-food stores. When it became a mass-market phenomenon, it was sweetened to the point of destroying its healthy potential, in addition to making it inedible for those of us without a sweet-tooth.

I blame Americans for this degeneration of food quality.

Hi Lisa,
I have read the book and loved it. Much easier to "grasp" as a script that I had expected.
And then ... the wonderful Postscript discussing the various sources that Frayn drew on to create this masterpiece.
Thank you again for pointing me in its direction.

I will read it again soon as I must confess I missed the ice cream references.
Now I will withdraw and return this thread to the wonderful Geoffrey and the creations he shares with us.

Alan