my question to a lot of you

This is for your own works!!!
jemima
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:03 am

my question to a lot of you

Post by jemima » Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:53 am

"why is there such anger
around the Holy one?
is becuase of the danger
that His love speaks of?

what axe do you have to grind
cutting down His cross
that only speaks of forgivness
and finding the lost.

this love divine.
a threat to our lives.
because it challenges us where we wish to hide.
we're angry at the one,
who says only
"i love you"

what is it that you hate?"

ok, so many of you probebly think this is crap, and will tell me so.i dont think its that great,but was persuaded to write it just because i find myself reading so many poems,all directly againts the one that i love and adore, Jesus.now,fair enough if thats not your stance,but why do i never find any other poetry having a go at other religions?im not saying that i wish to read such poetry,becuase i find that sort of attitude offensive.but why always Christianity?because when you do that, you attack me.so please forgive me,im not attacking you,but to me,its like you being rasist towards me,or attacking my family.
now,we are all allowed our own opinions,and im not saying dont have yours,but maybe some sensitivity could be in this place.ok,so your all about to attack me with you wit,because thats what you generally seem to do in here.fine.im not trying to be a great poet.
im just writing "from the heart".
jemima
how come you bother with my heart at all
LaurieAK
Posts: 1338
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:00 am

Post by LaurieAK » Sat Oct 16, 2004 2:33 pm

Hi Jemima~

I am sidestepping the 'poetic' aspect here with my comments:

As an outsider to western christian beliefs, I can tell you that part of my personal dismay with christianity is its tendency towards imposition. For example, i have never heard of a Buddhist missionary.

I am bothered by how the people (not the text) involved in christianity don't tend to hold other belief systems as valid as their own. That in itself to me, is the ultimate form of 'racism.' When one feels divinely superior, how can they really respect others and their beliefs? Just rhetorical. And just my 2 cents on your question and well thought out remarks.

Regards,
Laurie
jemima
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:03 am

Post by jemima » Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:10 pm

hi laurie.
i have to confess that i dont understand your opening sentence on the second paragraph.maybe im just being stupid, but there we go!!if you could explain, that would be great.
when i put racism, i used that word because it is the most efficiant way in describing the emotions felt when something so close to you, or is a part of you, attacked.racism seems to be more understood in that way though(make any sense?!)
i agree with you, it frustrates me when i see people acting "holier than thou", but thats not what Christ is about.God hates us judging more than He hates us sining.judging is the worst sin, because it suggests that we (the one judgeing)has supriority over another, which we obviously dont!a lot of people(pretty much everyone)needs forgiving from this.but i think that is another example of Gods love, in the sense that He welcomes in the prostitutes,tax collectors,adulterers,your average joe,along with those who judge.the Bibls says that Jesus is like "you say my name, yet I dont know you"(paraphrase) and i think that descirbes the relationship someone has who judges.
ok, well ive rambled, sorry.
jemima
how come you bother with my heart at all
Midnight
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:29 am

Post by Midnight » Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:57 pm

Dear Laurie,

For example, i have never heard of a Buddhist missionary.
Like Christianity and Islam, Buddhism IS one of the world's great missionary religions. Buddhist monks do travel and propagate their religion. I use the word religion even though some would disupte that. I think that LC even says that his Roshi (a missionary!) never tried to convert him. The point is---he didn't have to. LC accepted the Buddhist mindset and worldview. I don't want to get into a long (and on the internet) always futile discussion regarding the notion that only Chrisitans "impose" their beliefs. But when you get right down to it, Buddhism (and Hinduism) both have core beliefs that are non-negotiable. You must believe them in order to be bona-fide adherents.

Dear Jemima,

You are going to find a lot of Christian bashing on this board. You'll have to get use to it. Some people seem to have an active hatred for it and it shows up in their poetry. Others are anti-Christian but are courteous about it. You are right that the other religions are not attacked like Christianity here. The sad history of Chrisitanity when it was (or is) combined with political power is a blot that we have to own up to. But I always find it funny when people want to point to Christians...they never single out the ones who run the orphanges and soup kitchens and give their lives for others...it's always "See that hypocrite over there, ...there's a Christian for you."

However you have to realize that the real problem is that the Cross is an offense to people. It always has been and it always will be. The message of the Cross and forgiveness means there just might possibly be something you need to be forgiven for. Not a very popular doctrine.
LaurieAK
Posts: 1338
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 2:00 am

Post by LaurieAK » Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:15 pm

Midnight~

I've never had Buddhist's knocking on my door asking to read the bible with them....and i have not heard of them going into countries like Africa and converting the natives. Sounds like i am naive, if there are other religions doing this sort thing. I apologize for my oversight.

Jemima~ You asked about that sentence....i think its is a man-made notion to hold ones' personal religion above another. Tolerance and respect sound more like a what a loving religion and its icon/s would dictate. Still just opinion.

End of my 2 cents. Had i not been sitting here at my computer in the middle of the night last night, listening to a bear about 12 feet away from me munching on my neighbors garbage and scaring the beejeesus (no pun intended) outta me, i never would have chimed in on such a controversial subject...especially and obviously since i am not expert. It was a lapse i judgement. I fear bears and should equally fear religious discussions...ciao, L
Midnight
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:29 am

Post by Midnight » Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:41 pm

Dear Laurie,

Buddhism may not have made any great inroads in Africa. But they sure did in Asia. All religions gain adherents by talking to others about it. Methods may vary but I promise you there are many Buddhists out there who are actively promoting and propagating their religion. When a friend invites me to Satsang that's exactly what he's doing. If you become a disciple of any religion or belief system it is because someone told you about it.

A person should be tolerant and respectful regarding the expressions of all religions. (Something that clearly doesn't happen on this board regarding Christianity). But you have to own up intellectualy to the fact that they all contradict each other in essentials. They can all be wrong but they can not all be right.
Luke
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:08 am
Location: By the Gulf stream

Post by Luke » Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:47 am

Midnight
"All religions gain adherents by talking to others about it."
The opposite is also true,many religions alienate people because of their proselitysing nature.
I judge people by their actions not their words. If their actions lead them to what I consider an enlightened view I may question them on the underlying principles behind their actions.
Are you respectful and tolerant of satanists views?are you respectful of the expression of religious beliefs that involve mutilation?or treat one half of the species as only half a person. I do not ring fence religion as a subject that is taboo.
If someones interpretation of their mythology leads to irrational and abusive behaviour it should be treated the same as any corrupt and dangerous political or cultural belief system.
Jemima
"I'm not attacking you,but to me,its like you being racist towards me,or attacking my family."
Racial discrimination is not the same as religious discrimination,if a muslim attacks a christian or vica versa the muslim or christian can convert.
This has taken place often en masse throughout history as regional politicies fluctuated.It is also the reason that christianity and Islam have on occasion treated apostatism as punishable by death.
A black person is discrimanated against becuase of the colour of their skin which is a fact that cannot be altered.Micheal Jackson excluded
regards
User avatar
Makera
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:42 am
Location: The Other Side
Contact:

Post by Makera » Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:49 am

Hi Jemima ~ :D

I'm a little puzzled as to whom you could be referring regarding "anger around the Holy One".

If, as you say, God "hates us judging more than He hates us 'sinning'", then He would not be impressed by those spitting hate and judging others in His name, would He?
So, is it not the duty of those who see that being perpetrated to point it out?
Was it not the self-righteous hypocrites that the Master condemned and
blasted full force? Those who have no "heart" (and therefore no mercy) were those He said would "receive no mercy".

It is a sad fact that there are too many who wear the label "Christian" as
some elitist, exclusive badge of accomplishment. To be genuinely 'Christian' is a 'work in progress', a struggle to grow towards.
Not lip service, "teaching as dogma the precepts of men"!

I was not brought up to be Christian, I found the truth buried beneath all
the sectarian 'isms' , 'schisms' and cults on my own by personal experience. I prefer the term 'Christed' to 'Christian'.

All the major religions carry the essential core of truth and should be respected. None hold a monopoly on the truth...they are simply different paths to the same destination. :idea:
The essential message in all is that we're all members of one spiritual family, learning to remember our relationship to each other and our Source, Creator, true Home.

Love IS the only key.

Love & Light,
~ Makera
User avatar
Teratogen
Posts: 1653
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Santa Clarita, California
Contact:

Post by Teratogen » Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:19 am

ok, here's my two cents, because i know all of you talking about christian bashing are talking about me.

i think what laurie said is pretty much the feeling toward christianity, from someone who is not christian. i never said i hated jesus or anything. i come from a jewish family, but i do not practice judaism because of my personal beliefs against ANY organized religion.

midnight, if there ARE buddhist missionaries, i seriously doubt that they proselytize as much as the christians. jews don't proselytize. christianity is EVERYWHERE. in america everything is run by christianity. i'm convinced of it. we even use the christian calendar. christians are on television, stealing your money. they're on the streetcorners holding up signs. i wonder why they don't go home to their family. christians are on school campuses handing out mini bibles. i see more churches than i do any other building of worship for any other religion. and it goes way beyond that, too.

i hardly compare christianity with jesus christ. it's like comparing marxism with karl marx. in case you forgot, leonard says in "jazz police," "jesus taken serious by many, jesus taken joyous by a few." and that is essentially the description of what is going on here. i watch "the passion of the christ" and i think to myself how much jesus is like a hippie. i mean, i can't say he IS a hippie, but he very well could have been! during the flashbacks he tells his disciples things that don't seem very controversial whatsoever. they are things every human being ought to be obligated to--and his message is to essentially be tolerant, love your enemy, shit like that. there's nothing wrong with that. i know so many christians with ill will and bitterness towards other people for almost nothing. it doesn't even have to be towards someone who is of another religion, it's just people who say they are christians and then act like assholes. now i know you are sitting there saying, "well, then they're not christians." well everyone says that!!! is nobody a christian!?

and i say the same thing to midnight.... your buddhist friend, you said he invited you to some buddhist retreat or something? did HE do that, or was that part of the buddhist doctrine? if it was him inviting you, then he must be acting out of his own interest and is not practicing buddhism correctly. if you're absolutely certain it's part of the buddhist doctrine then i want to see where it says that. show me proof.

and y'know, i don't think every christian doctrine is something jesus would necessarily be connected to. the whole guilt thing angers me because it's trying to make you feel bad for being a human. and judgment is one of the most human qualities we have. judging people hinders your ability to know them, understand them, and tolerate them. but it's nothing we can avoid. people judge out of fear of the unknown. seeing someone or something we automatically put it into a category and label it so we feel safer thinking we know about it. not being able to identify something and place a label on it makes us feel uneasy because of how different and mysterious it is.

that is all for now, but i imagine i will be visiting this thread quite often...
paula_hansen
Posts: 143
Joined: Wed Mar 12, 2003 10:24 pm

Post by paula_hansen » Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:40 am

I think Makera has put it best "All the major religions carry the essential core of truth and should be respected. None hold a monopoly on the truth...they are simply different paths to the same destination.
The essential message in all is that we're all members of one spiritual family, learning to remember our relationship to each other and our Source, Creator, true Home.

Love IS the only key."

We Are All His Children, (including the Stupid and the Ugly)
User avatar
Paula
Posts: 3152
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2002 1:20 am
Location: London

Post by Paula » Sun Oct 17, 2004 5:41 pm

Jemima I am agnostic brought up Church of England. I don't have a problem with anyone's beliefs - each to their own - but just because you or anyone has a faith why do they feel compelled to thrust it down our throats. I am glad you have a faith that comforts you and I am happy that Muslims, Islamics, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons etc have their faiths but please don't inflict it on those that don't want it.

Most of the troubles in the world today are in some way shape or form connected with religion so forgive me for not thinking having a faith is the best thing since sliced bread. I get fed up with happy clappies and Mormons stopping me in the street to convert me. I am happy in my non-belief and I am glad you are happy in your belief.
User avatar
Sandra
Posts: 813
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 5:01 pm
Location: al sur del mundo
Contact:

Post by Sandra » Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:07 pm

I agree with these words of Makera:
"All the major religions carry the essential core of truth and should be respected. None hold a monopoly on the truth...they are simply different paths to the same destination.
The essential message in all is that we're all members of one spiritual family, learning to remember our relationship to each other and our Source, Creator, true Home. "

"Love IS the only key."
User avatar
Teratogen
Posts: 1653
Joined: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:09 pm
Location: Santa Clarita, California
Contact:

Post by Teratogen » Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:44 am

paula is also correct in saying most of the problems in the world are because of religion, no matter what kind. and not just the problems now, but even in the past.

i used to hate prosyletizers, but now i like to fuck with them when they come to my door, which has a mesuzah on it, because of my family. mormons are great. i'll open the door wearing a marilyn manson t-shirt and i'll get into a whole conversation with them, not necessarily about religion. haha. i had jehovah's witness come, too, one time. a middle-aged and elderly woman. THEY were telling ME about GOD'S plan for me, because, y'know, they KNEW it and everything. hahaha. seems like all these people talk about music. i get them talking about rock and roll. the lady told me about going to a classic rock concert and seeing people smoking pot. i was like, "hell yeah." hahaha.

this middle-aged guy i work with did something funny one time. he had some j.w.'s come to his door trying to convert him. he said, "i'm catholic; and i smoke, drink, and curse. goodbye," then shut the door on them. HAHAHAHA. i always love hearing that story!
Midnight
Posts: 297
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:29 am

Post by Midnight » Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:37 pm

Dear Fellow Forumites,

Just a few notes,

(1) All religions contradict each other in essentials. They are only superficially alike. We can recite all the platitiudes we want about how we're all one big happy human family on different theological roads leading to the same destination. But it isn't true. There are fundamental differences. I repeat All Religions contradict each other in the essentials. They cannot all be true.

(2) Christianity is by it's very nature a proselytzing religion. It would not be Christianity if it wasn't a proselytzing religion. It is centered on a Person. To use a rather silly analogy...how many of you have tried to get somebody you know to get into Leonard Cohen and his music. Why did you tell somebody about him? I bet it's because you love him and his music. It excites you or you find it enthralling...or his music completes you in some way. I've read this over and over on this forum. ("I love LC and my friends and family just don't get it...I've tried to get my friends to listen but they just don't want to...etc., etc.") If you love something or somebody ...if something changes your life in a radical way you're going to be vocal about it. There's nothing absurd or underhanded about people trying to persuade others to their viewpoint.

(3) The real problem with Christianity is the message. Not the messengers.

(4) For those who think Christians are running everything in this country....Hello! What cave have you been living in. This country is going to hell in a hand-basket. It's got as much chance of being taken over by Christians as it has by a flock of mad ducks. Get real.

(5) Luke,
Are you respectful and tolerant of satanists views?are you respectful of the expression of religious beliefs that involve mutilation?or treat one half of the species as only half a person.
No, I am not respectful and tolerant of satanists or mutilators. My remark about tolerance of religious expressions was in regard to this board. And the lack there-of towards one religion in particular.

(6) Anyone that wants to slam Christians and Christianity on this board...it is o.k. by me. I expect it. I don't want to censor anybody. But don't kid yourself. There is a deep-seated animosity directed towards Christianity on this board. (And not just Teratogen) I laugh every time I see a post where someone brings the subject up, directly or indirectly, and the only proper noun that is deliberately uncapitalized is the word Christian. It makes my day. :)
jim
Posts: 31
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:02 pm

religious differences

Post by jim » Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:11 pm

it's too late for me to follow the arguments very closely, but something william blake wrote came to mind:

Everything that it is possible to believe is an image of the truth.
Post Reply

Return to “Writing, Music and Art by the Forum members”