Shall we dance?

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George.Wright
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Shall we dance?

Post by George.Wright »

Shall we dance?
the night is full of romance
and i got an itch in my pants

Shall we dance?
the vertical embrace of a horizontal desire
and my groin has turned to fire

Shall we dance?
and kiss per chance
a sexy wee number, made in France

Shall we dance?
and entwine together
in the purple heather

Shall we dance?
in this shower room turned into a coffin
naked and to breathe
the cyanide slease

Shall we dance?
in death united
coitus slighted
and the ovens are lighted

Shall we dance?
ashes to ashes grow
and drop like snow
together forever you know

Georges
I am a right bad ass, dankish prince and I love my Violet to bits.
Hermitage
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Post by Hermitage »

I am now convinced that self-censorship is essential here. The combination of images does not seem to me to be the least bit poetic; on the contrary, it seemed gratuitous, and just plain awful.
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Byron
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Post by Byron »

Hermitage. Thank you for your offering. George has as much validity to be here in this section as lc has in 'LOVERS.'
So be a good fellow and go and chew a brick.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
George.Wright
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Post by George.Wright »

Well Hermitage, i take your point.
I was not sure if to post this but i said i would.
It was to show the dancing in the world, and hopefully pure love that would transcend even the gas chambers. People stripped of their dignity but still having each other, even in death.
It was a 'post of courage', and as it is only for sharing, i thought it would be appreciated.
OK, i maybe got it wrong.
Apologies to you, as i am trying to improve my expressionism.
Byron, you are a true gentleman.
Best Regards........Georges
I am a right bad ass, dankish prince and I love my Violet to bits.
Hermitage
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Post by Hermitage »

Georges,
I appreciate your response. Despite your explanation, though, I still don't see how "pure love" and "dignity" present through phrases such as "sexy wee number", "coitus slighted", "itch in my pants".


Byron,
Who said Georges has not right to be here? Those are your words, not mine. I merely made it clear that I didn't like the poem. Your suggestion that I "chew a brick" makes me think that Georges is wrong: you are no gentleman at all.

Hermitage
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

Hi Byron ~

I was surprized to see the strength of your reaction to Hermitage, also. I didn't see where he had suggested that Georges had no right to, or shouldn't be here. He was strictly relating his feelings about the poem, whose images were strong and likely to stir feelings of one sort or another.

Hi Hermitage ~

I reacted similarly to the phrases you've pointed out. I saw them as diminishing anything that might be considered pure love. My understanding is that some people were forced to dance together for extremely long periods, prior to their deaths. However, previously-intact couples had long been separated, so the partners for such dances were likely to be total strangers, with pure love having no presence or relevance.

The "itch in my pants" sounded like maybe an erection? However, I believe the forboding atmosphere of it all would more likely preclude than include such a response with dancing. Though I can't say for sure on that. At any rate, it would deserve more serious phrasing than that.

"Sexy wee number" I reacted to, as well. It didn't sound like love or dignity, either one.

With "coitus slighted," I had an initial reaction, but then I began to think of the dance as one that never finished, in the way that regular lovers might want it to. This requires a switch in perspective as to which lovers, as they would not be one and the same. The lovers who would dance with such thoughts would not be the two forced together onto the Nazi's dance floor. Then, I began to wonder if, in the midst of such 'coupling,' people might find the erotic still present, at least enough to imagine such a conclusion, were circumstances different. Then I thought, perhaps, he was talking about two, entirely separate dances....one in the day-to-day world [first, four stanzas ~ where heather was really an option] and the forced one, amidst the Holocaust [last, three stanzas ~ with the sinister reality].

Reading Georges' response to you, I see where he was going with it. I found the last stanza to be very interesting and existential. I thought to myself, how does one take such a horrendous event of history, such as the Holocaust, and consider from an imaginative standpoint, the possibilities of what people could have been thinking and feeling, as they were forced to do things against their will? Does the human spirit sometimes fight to be itself, as in a man getting an erection and enjoying in whatever he still can, the body of a woman, and having fantasies, while being forced to dance to his death? In my mind, it's essential that while even considering the possibilities, that the imagined people be given the utmost respect. I saw that as a shortcoming in this poem. However, I found the images [good, bad, and otherwise] to be evocative, and it seems that the poem could be reworked to address some of the truly [in my mind] offensive aspects of it, which I've just addressed.

Of course, I may be off base with how I've interpreted the poem to begin with, too.

~ Elizabeth
Hermitage
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Post by Hermitage »

Lizzytysh,
Thanks for your response, into which you obviously put some thought. I don't really want to get into a long discussion about this--but I do want to say that in the death camps, the gas chambers, at the sites of the mass graves, in the cattle cars, the only physical sensations experienced by the victims were starvation, disease, terror, thirst .....

Maybe the prison guards in their cruelty drew some bizarre connection between sex and murder---
I don't think I want to go there.
Hermitage
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Post by Iubita »

Hi George,

I just want to share my feelings reading your poem...I don't really know if I'll be able to do it properly, because of my poor English...but I'll make a try...
actually, I was extremelly shocked and surprised by the theme of your poem reading it at the first time ...the same, I believe, has happened to Hermitage...it is very usual human reaction, I think... noone of us wants to accept and listen about such a devils thing as a Nazzi's dance...and noone can believe and accept the thought about pure love and erection in such a dangerous situation...this just sounds like someone is mixing Devil with God...something awafuly bad with this so white, pure and beautiful emotion and act as a Love Dance or Love itself which is lasting forever...
but when I've read it again and again I've found your poem very powerful and I appreciate that you decided to post it here...why?...may be because it's making me think more and more about this people and their hystory...about the Holocaust and how this happened to them...I don't think it is important right now if someone's than really got some erection or not...the most important is your thought that Love can be the only one which can keep someone's mind away when he is facing such a awaful situation...and I imagine that this can be the only, really only way to escape from such a reality and to face the death...may be this is only my imagination...may be I just want to believe in the power of Love...may be it can never happen in the real world when someone is facing death...who knows what the human brain can produce as thoughts when we are in such situation...noone of us knows and I hope and believe that it will never happen again and we'll never know it...that is why I am voting for your poem and I accepted it even it's provoked so many unpleasant thoughts in the beginning...as it's usually happeened when you are watching movies about Holocaust, Armenian Genocid or so on...but that's the way to keep them in our memory, I believe...

warm regards,

Iubita
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Byron
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Post by Byron »

Allow me to explain. I did not make myself as clear as I intended.
All of George's work has as much right to appear in this forum, as has all of lc's words in 'Lovers.'
When scholars discuss poetry, they often refer to their creators as still being alive. At the moment there is a lot of discussion about how accessible Plath is, and how highly they rate her work. "Would you consider her to be a good, or mediocre poet?" was a sentence used in a radio literary debate. The debate went on to talk about Plath and the new film about her, as if Plath were still alive and kicking.
My previous posting was a follow on from the method of debate I had been listening to. I apologise for being so cryptic.
I love George's work for many reasons and one of those reasons is that he displays raw material, which I find refreshing. Poets attempt to bring multiple layers of transcendental meanings to their 'children,' but George brings unambiguous and unequivocal 'in your face' offerings which I found particularly apposite in this poem with its content, viewpoint and subject(s).
I hope I have 'set out my stall' as clearly as possible.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
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Byron
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Post by Byron »

Hermitage. Having written that you merely made it clear that you didn't like the poem, leaves me in a state of quandary.
a) Do I follow your example and respond in kind to other contributions?
b) Do we all respond in kind to other contributions?
c) Do I renege on a promise I publicly made to 'another' in this forum and follow your example by 'speaking my mind' on matters, which I believe to be 'just plain awful' ?
d) Do I maintain my silence on matters, while you feel free to advise others to use self-censorship?
e) Given the points raised above, do I feel inclined to retract my 'brick' and not follow your example? Yes, I would rather retract my 'brick' and make a point of not following your example. Therefore Hermitage, I apologise for my comments to you and do so in this public way.
f) Do I feel better for having apologised? Yes.
g) Would I rather read George's poems and prose than Hermitage's postings? Yes.
h) Should I remove my 'brick' remark from my original posting? No, because that would be a deceitful and cowardly path to take and it would render the ensuing discussion as worthless and confusing. Therefore, the remark remains. The apology stands.
Regards. Byron
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
Moonlight
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Post by Moonlight »

George,

I'm about to give up on you.
This poem is absolutely rotten.
You trivialize a profound subject with your inane "itch in my pants" and "sexy wee number". :x In this poem you have managed to be grotesque and silly at the same time. I only hope you were inebriated when you wrote this and even more so when you posted it.

M
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Post by LaurieAK »

Georges~You mentioned having some misgivings about posting this poem. I was shocked by the mix of messages you used. Sometimes intentions do not comes across as intended. For specifics, the first 3 stanzas do not belong in a poem which ends in such a real and heart-wrenching event. They are more towards what one would read in a silly limerick. The third stanza doesn't seem to belong at all. Your poem then suddenly takes us to gas chambers. No context, no connection to the previous stanzas and their ribald attitude. A horrible event just dropped in the lap of your readers. If this (holocaust) is what you want your readers to focus on, then treat it with the dignity and reverence it deserves. I am trying to be helpful not hurtful. I think the critism you have received for this piece is because of what i am mentioning here. It certainly is not personal. I am sure you can learn from this and reconsider what gives you pause for thought in the future. And helps you on the road to becoming a better poet for yourself (not us fools in cyberland).
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

I agree, Hermitage. I also believe what apparently has been found to be true regarding the physical sensations being pretty limited to the negative end of the spectrum. Nothing very redeeming, if redeeming at all, was felt. So many felt alienated and confused, having been wrenched from all things and people of meaning in their lives. It seems to me that terror prevailed, and eros had little ~ if any ~ presence. Have you ever seen the film "The Night Porter"? It does some excellent exploration into the psyche, with regard to the exploitation that occurred.

I believe that what you've posed, as a possibility, is also a reality. It seems to me that when people are in power positions, controlling the continuation or extinction of other people's lives, perversities are borne out of those dynamics, and the bizarre connections are made.

Byron ~ I feel Hermitage's was a natural and understandable response, of which he was entitled expression. If a poem dealing with something of such magnitude is posted, I defend people's right to voice their objections to its content and phrasings. It's part of the discussion process.

I agree with Laurie that extreme care must be taken when dealing with this horrific event, by employing unmistakable dignity and reverence for the victims, including those who lived and now have descendants amongst us. Some of the phrasing used could easily be called "tacky." The Holocaust is not a topic for frivolous writing, which Moonlight accurately points out "trivializes a profound subject."

~ Elizabeth
George.Wright
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Post by George.Wright »

To all
the power of love in death, can be found in the Holocaust
that's what makes it such a crime to humanity
think of it, coupling still going on in the barrack rooms
children to their death with their mothers(or without)
and to tie it all in with normality, is the ultimate insult
my poem is to SHOCK
and add the cliches to the abnormal
for this is life
and man is his worst judger
i am sorry some did not get the message.................it was clear.
Georges
I am a right bad ass, dankish prince and I love my Violet to bits.
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

I kinda know where you're coming from, with your latest post, Georges. However, I'm still not quite getting it. Is there anything else you might say, in the way of explanation with specifics, that could help in that? Thanks.

~ Lizzy
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