Dear Manna,
Friday night is Shabbat; the beginning of the Sabbath. It is here I feel I should be formal, acknowledge the 'something' which abides within and without. So many times I have cursed this; when someone close dies, when I can't handle bipolar, when my dreams are exhausted. And so many times I question it; for example, the Holocaust, Rwanda, Cambodia and so on. I wonder if my feelings are just guilt or the vestiges of my "culture". I look at my psychology texts and think perhaps my feelings fit neatly into some model.
However, I 'talk' to G-d often. And even cumbersome prayer, which may seem like that of a child adoring his/her parent, doesn't matter when one connects with Life. I think there is an energy, a knowing, a mystery. Yes, a mystery, which sustains, which nourishes. It is rooted in Love; but it is also well aware of suffering.
I think the Eden affair is metaphor, rich metaphor. Humanity, through the dance of evolution, came to 'know'. We understood good and evil and hence, were tossed out of the garden. No other animal knows it in quite the same way. And, I think this was intended. Now you've got me going. I must stop except to say two things. Firstly, if prayer was good enough for Gandhi - it is good enough for me. And secondly, a miracle happened last night, on Shabbat, my niece gave birth to her first child, I became a great uncle. That is G-d!
Thank you for your thought provoking post,
Adam
Book of Mercy #11-15
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Byron
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To my right hand side on the bookshelves I have several Missals, Psalms, and Devotional Readings, I also have Theology and Sanity by Frank Sheed, Reasonable Belief by Hanson(s), The Seeds of Happiness by Aivanhov, Man Master of his Destiny by Aivanhov, Subconsciousness Guide to Meditation by Walters, Approaches to Hinduism by Jackson and Killingley, Hinduism by Zaehner, Handbook of Living Religions by Hinnells, Greek Philosophy and the Christian Notion of God by Watson, Primary Readings in Philosophy for Understanding Theology by Allen and Springsted, Islam The Straight Path by Esposito, Readings in The Quran translated by Cragg, The Holy Quaran translated by Ali, 4 separate Bibles, Paul of Tarsus by Stourton, several Catechism guides, Paradise Lost by Milton, Johnathan Livingston Seagull and Illusions by Bach, The Prison Diary of Ho Chi Minh, and that's before I go into the lounge, or onto the landing, where I have more reading to hand.
A certain lady from Florida can vouchsafe my veracity in this declaration of shelf usage. Tons of poetry books adorn t'other shelves. However, I must add that all books have fallen under the weary eye of yours truly. I just love reading and books.
They give me the words to express myself more fully when I commune with God. Praying is a two way conversation. The thing to remember is that I pray within our human time-scale, whilst God has no such restriction.
A certain lady from Florida can vouchsafe my veracity in this declaration of shelf usage. Tons of poetry books adorn t'other shelves. However, I must add that all books have fallen under the weary eye of yours truly. I just love reading and books.
They give me the words to express myself more fully when I commune with God. Praying is a two way conversation. The thing to remember is that I pray within our human time-scale, whilst God has no such restriction.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
. It sounds like you and your niece are very close It is indeed two way, Byron. That is beautiful. And like in everyday life, sometimes hearing and comprehending the other is difficult. To your final sentence, I say, "G-d is". This helps me understand, if it's at all possible, the majesty, the awesome nowness we often don't/can't intuit. Eternity is now; as is G-d. As are we.Byron wrote:They give me the words to express myself more fully when I commune with God. Praying is a two way conversation. The thing to remember is that I pray within our human time-scale, whilst God has no such restriction.
Jonathan Livingston Seagull and Illusions by Richard Bach are inspiring. I play the soundrack to JLS (the film) by Neil Diamond on occasion and am blown away. My parents played it over and over when I was a young boy - something caught. I love track 2, Be.
Thanks Lizzy,
Cooper is a blessing. All life is.
Adam
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Byron
- Posts: 3171
- Joined: Tue Nov 26, 2002 3:01 pm
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I agree.To your final sentence, I say, "G-d is". This helps me understand, if it's at all possible, the majesty, the awesome nowness we often don't/can't intuit. Eternity is now; as is G-d. As are we.Adam
Once again I have been given another day. I am, because He wills it so. All that this day is, is being gifted to me. I am held in time, as if each moment is the only moment of existence...and then the world of men impinges on it and ruins the tranquillity of simply 'being.'
My bipolar moments are smothered under medication and the well is dry. My subconscious tipper-truck, no longer unloads its flurry of surprises onto my unsuspecting mind.
"Bipolar is a roller-coaster ride without a seat belt. One day you're flying with the fireworks; for the next month you're being scraped off the trolley" I said that.
Maybe that's one part of why I can't get myself believing - it's never felt 2-way to me. Can you tell me more about this? Maybe we should start a separate thread (?) if we want to talk more about prayer and this kind of thing.
I'm still not sure what the "This" means in the beginning of 1.15. Is "This" the rags and begging that he's talking about in the next lines, or was he personally speaking about some state he was in the moment he wrote it? Maybe there's something from a previous prayer that I missed?
I'm still not sure what the "This" means in the beginning of 1.15. Is "This" the rags and begging that he's talking about in the next lines, or was he personally speaking about some state he was in the moment he wrote it? Maybe there's something from a previous prayer that I missed?
This seems like the right place to be talking about prayer right now. It seems to me that the rags and begging part is about the way we pray.Manna wrote:I'm still not sure what the "This" means in the beginning of 1.15. Is "This" the rags and begging that he's talking about in the next lines, or was he personally speaking about some state he was in the moment he wrote it? Maybe there's something from a previous prayer that I missed?
When he says "This is the way we summon one another" is something else, it IS his prayer and as such it is a way to talk to eternity. The word "this" will always be in the present like it is now. This is how, Lizzy, Doron, Simon, Mat and Manna and Jack summon one another. The way they do now. Not necessarily the same way as they have in the past although you can use the past as good examples like the one that comes to my mind and makes me laugh. Leonard, in one of his songs, has the words
That kind of sounds like a summoning one another although the she he was talking about maybe didn't really use those words but what she was doing had that effect.She beckoned to the sentry of his high religious mood
She said, "I'll make a place between my legs,
I'll show you solitude."
Leonard had no way of knowing just how people would be summoning each other when they read those words "this is the way" but he didn't have to because if he addressed who he was addressing in a pure enough way it would always be current. It would make his meaning consistant.
Last edited by lazariuk on Sun Mar 25, 2007 6:07 am, edited 3 times in total.
It's still not clear to me. He says "This is the way we summon one another, but it is not the way we call upon the Name." I think the difference in language here - summon vs. call upon - is important, and I think I know what that's about, but I don't think that it's the point of the contrast he's getting at. I know that's not what you were saying either, but I don't think I understand what you were saying. I'll read it a few more times.
Manna, I posted this below, earlier. I think it addresses your concern.It's still not clear to me. He says "This is the way we summon one another, but it is not the way we call upon the Name.".......Manna
This is how it "reads" for me.
So we summon one another, communally, through our combined experience of pain. It is fear and tears that unite us:I.15
"This is the way we summon one another, but it is not the way we call upon the Name.
Leonard seems to be saying that fear and tears are not the way we should seek out the "Name", but fear and tears at least keep us together as a unit/tribe/people."but it is not the way we call upon the Name."
If we tie in this verse with the final part of the previous verse (1.14), then:
"I was like one who had never been caressed, when you touched me from a place in your name, and dressed the wound of ignorance with mercy. Blessed is the covenant of love, the covenant of mercy..." 1.14 extract.
Following on from 1.14, perhaps Leonard is suggesting that his tribe (or humanity in a more general sense) is united through pain and crisis and it is this continual pain through life that is the glue that holds us or perhaps any community tight, and together.
But...something else is required to
."call upon the name"
I suggest Leonard is referring to love and the "longing" that it evokes.
...and if we are fortunate, we will mercifully (book of mercy) receive that "touch" that "longing" craves.." Blessed is the covenant of love,"
1.14
"when you touched me from a place in your name, and dressed the wound of ignorance"
One needs to ask "What ignorance"?
I suggest ignorance of that "touch".
That "touch" that brings on a transfer of "knowing" (that dressed the wound of ignorance; or dressed the wound of not-knowing).
That merciful healing of the wound of not-knowing is experienced in the midst of that "touch", rather than understood rationally or logically.
That "touch" may be brought on/initiated by "longing" (love)
The word "touch" , when spoken in this context is so evocative and simple and human and divine.
This loving/longing is very "Songs of Solomon"---ish.
In summary, Leonard is saying (to me):
Our people get together and help each other in the strife of life.
But to get together with God you have to long for him, love him, desparately. And like the Lover thet He is, when He touches you, you will Know! (and no longer be "ignorant" of that pleasure.
Matj.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
Just curious, how old was Leonard when he wrote this?
Manna's attempt at paraphrasing:
This is how we have authority over each other so that they come when we call, but it doesn’t work when we want G-d to come. We can call upon each other when we are feeling that helplessness we feel when we consider humanity’s failures. It’s great that we can talk to G-d like this, that we have solitude, and in that solitude, G-d is there and everything is connected.
The only way he’s talked about is the way to talk to each other, and he says this isn’t the way to talk to G-d, and then he says, how beautiful it is that we talk to G-d like this.
I'm still not entirely convinced this is a prayer; it seems more like a little sermon on how to pray. Of course, Leonard and all y'all know things about prayer that I do not.
ps.
I like this:
Can you see how it feels contradictory to me?Leonard wrote:This is the way we summon one another, but it is not the way we call upon the Name. We stand in rags, we beg for tears to dissolve the immovable landmarks of hatred. How beautiful our heritage, to have this way of speaking to eternity, how bountiful this solitude, surrounded, filled and mastered by the Name, from which all things arise in splendour, depending one upon the other.
Manna's attempt at paraphrasing:
This is how we have authority over each other so that they come when we call, but it doesn’t work when we want G-d to come. We can call upon each other when we are feeling that helplessness we feel when we consider humanity’s failures. It’s great that we can talk to G-d like this, that we have solitude, and in that solitude, G-d is there and everything is connected.
The only way he’s talked about is the way to talk to each other, and he says this isn’t the way to talk to G-d, and then he says, how beautiful it is that we talk to G-d like this.
I'm still not entirely convinced this is a prayer; it seems more like a little sermon on how to pray. Of course, Leonard and all y'all know things about prayer that I do not.
ps.
I like this:
((I've been having trouble with making the coding work, so I hope this works.))mat wrote:The word "touch" , when spoken in this context is so evocative and simple and human and divine.