its4inthemorning wrote: ↑Fri Oct 29, 2021 7:18 pm I do not recall discussion on here on "Puppets" from Leonard's posthumous album.
4

4, You must have ESP

See here - https://www.leonardcohenforum.com/viewt ... 58#p377734

EDIT: Ha! 4, thanks for your joint email confirming your special function
Also, prompted by something else, I've just watched again an LC interview from 2006 and thought I'd add and compare what he said about his memory a year later on: "I'm blessed with active amnesia*.

its4inthemorning wrote: ↑Sat Oct 30, 2021 7:31 pm Bev, a question: Did you simply use the search function regarding "Puppets" being previously discussed here, or did you actually recall the discussions you cited? If the latter, then my memory is far, far worse than yours, even after reading the comments again I only barely recalled them. (Make me feel relieved by saying you just used the search function.)
4

He, he! 4, I used both functions my memory and the forum search.
Firstly, I remembered you previously saying something (but not precisely) about Puppets and that I had also posted a link to LC reciting that original poem when I gave Vickie her intermediate to advanced diploma - see the last post in the search link. I then used the search button as a general inquiry for all references to Puppets on this thread.

4, I should add, in any case, don’t think twice about the state of your memory. Here’s what Leonard said about his from an interview in 2005 called Leonard Looks Back On The Past by Kari Hesthamar:

“My memory is not so good, you know, in fact, I’ve been blessed with amnesia, I hardly remember anything from the past, so that’s made me a very unsentimental person, I don’t have any good memories, or bad memories, so it’s okay. But I very rarely review my memories”...
“As I’ve told you many times now, my memory…, it’s just not that my memory is not good, it’s that I don’t exercise my memory so it gets flabby and it goes to sleep, because I’m not interested in the past”...
Interviewer: There you see, you have good memory, you can recall...
"I’m just performing darling, I don’t really care about those things to tell you the truth".

Bev, a question: Did you simply use the search function regarding "Puppets" being previously discussed here, or did you actually recall the discussions you cited? If the latter, then my memory is far, far worse than yours, even after reading the comments again I only barely recalled them. (Make me feel relieved by saying you just used the search function.)

"On turning Away" is a beautiful song both musically and lyrically. Roger Waters wrote most of Pink Floyd's lyrics after Syd Barrett left the picture through "The Wall," then David Gilmour took over most of the lyricist duties, most recently with Polly Samson as co-writer. As an aside, the album that contains "On Turning Away" also includes "Learning to Fly." Before I heard this song, I considered what it would be about: growing up, evolving a relationship, mastering some talent, etc. Then I heard the song and was somewhat shocked to find that it literally is about learning to fly--Gilmour loves airplanes and flying and has a pilot's license!

As for "Puppets," Vickie I can understand why it ranks lowest on your favorites list from TFTD. I had the same feeling the first time I listened, but....something really grabbed me with each successive play. Your aversion to the word "puppets" is duly noted and I will henceforth try to remember to use "marionettes" instead.

4

Ah, by both of you talking about "puppets" and “turning away” has reminded me of a favourite song called “On The Turning Away” by Pink Floyd that has always resonated with me over the years since I first bought it on cassette tape.

Here’s the first verse:
“On the turning away from the pale down-trodden
And the words they say which we won’t understand
Don’t accept that what’s happening
Is just a case of others suffering
Or you’ll find that you’re joining in the turning away”

And the last verse:
“No more turning away from the weak and the weary
No more turning away from the coldness inside
Just a world that we all must share
It’s not enough just to stand and stare
Is it only a dream that there’ll be no more turning away”

And consequently, I am reminded of these conversations:

https://www.leonardcohenforum.com/viewt ... yd#p370712

https://www.leonardcohenforum.com/viewt ... yd#p374398

4 wrote: I never would have imagined that a connection could develop between Cohen and Pink Floyd, one of my favorite rock groups...

... with 4 and Pink Floyd and LC again here too -
https://www.leonardcohenforum.com/viewt ... yd#p373172

Also, I did a search for “puppets” and this is the result - https://www.leonardcohenforum.com/searc ... sf=msgonly

It seems sometimes things really do have unsuspected circular connections

Of all the songs on TFTD, Puppets is probably towards the bottom of the list if I were to make one. But ranking Leonard's songs is a little like taking a pile of perfect diamonds and assembling them in order from your favorite to your least favorite. They are all still perfect diamonds.

Having said that, the thing about Puppets that I have trouble with is the repetitive word 'puppet' throughout. Yes I know that is the whole essence of the song, but for some reason it gets to me, and I wish it had a little more meat and potatoes in it.

As for the meaning. unlike 4, I don't think Leonard is trying to warn us against complacency and turning away or 'bad things' might happen. I think it is more his way of accepting and surrendering to the fact that we are not in control. We are not the puppeteers. History repeats itself in love and in war with different players, including puppet me and puppet you.

I have to say again though that I love that album... the tone of it and Leonard's awesome voice. The musical arrangements are perfect. And I am wild about the video for Moving On! (Which may or may not have something to do with the fact that it was filmed on Hydra and features a donkey )

Vickie

I do not recall discussion on here on "Puppets" from Leonard's posthumous album.

Some might say the song was a recitation of the poem and not really music, but to me the instrumental and chorus overlays add so, so much and actually make the words that much more chilling. The selection and production of these overlays was pure genious.

I came across an earlier version (circa 2006) of "Puppets" with different musical overlays on Allan Showalter's site and am posting a link here:

https://youtu.be/bZBTHhQxXoA

The differences between this old version and the final one are vast. Isn't it amazing how different a poem can be with different musical treatments?

If anything, the many discussions on this thread reinforced the idea that Leonard's lyrics lend themselves to (and in my opinion were designed to) allow for listeners to arrive at their own interpretations based on their own life experiences. That being said, it seems somewhat unlikely that anyone could interpret the beginning stanzas as anything but references to Nazi Germany and the holocaust. Based on when the poem was written, the stanzas referencing "presidents" would seem to be references to the Iraq war, but of course those stanzas could apply to any leader who takes his country to war, even a war that history has good things to say about. It is the stanzas about the puppet lovers and the puppet reader that, at least to me, are the most clever and thought-provoking. Until these stanzas, the listener may have been lulled into a complacency of sorts, as he might feel the holocaust and the Iraq war were outside of his responsibility and control. But Cohen seems to be reminding listeners that it is actions such as "shaking one's head" and "turning away from all of this" by ordinary people that ultimately allow very bad things to occur.

4

Its4inthemorning, I'm glad you added this update to the first part of your essay:

its4inthemorning wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:03 amEdit 2/7/20: I was leafing through Sylvie's "I'm Your Man" and see that I should have offered thanks to Rob Hallet as well as to Robert Kory for being instrumental in Leonard's decision to tour again; Hallet, a prominent music promoter, made the extraordinary deal to Leonard that he could take all the time he needed to set up a band and practice (with Hallet paying the bills), and if in the end Leonard's final decision was to not tour, Hallet would eat the expenses and they would part friends.

If my memory doesn't play tricks on me, Leonard Cohen invested something like a million dollars (of Rob Hallett's money!) into the preparations.
If that woman should indeed have triggered anything, she also would have made any realisation virtually impossible through leaving Leonard Cohen broke.
So she deserves little credit — if any.

Vickie, for my part I just look at the forum board to see if there are any new posts, on any topic. Much easier than open my email, check for notifications, and finally be limited to the topics previously specified…

("Jazz Police" and "Puppets" are not my favourites either.)

I already said a few words about "The Night of Santiago", so I'll skip that for the time being.

In "It's Torn", I have a special liking for the lines

It's torn where there's mercy
but torn somewhat less

It's torn in the centre
which few can accept
(It's torn at the very "heart of this or any other matter"…)

and

And Eve must re-enter
the sleep of her birth

As for "The Hills", I can no more than bow to

She'll see what I mean
My will cut in half
and freedom between

and especially to

And I know she will look
And that is the longing
and this is the hook

(https://leonardcohenforum.com/viewtopic ... 15#p342833)

Poor Dave, to be expected to live up to the reputation of a notorious life-long womanizer--or to put it more delicately and in line with the theme of the song--aficionado of the fairer sex. I was browsing through the last section of "The Flame," and it struck me how many of Leonard's notebook entries had to do with his relationships with women. It's like he was unable or unwilling to ever forgot about any encounter.

Oh, I should apologize for my references to "Night in Santiago" rather than "Night of Santiago," just more proof that I have not listened to the album enough yet.

Not to put Santiago aside, but I have come to like "Puppets" a lot. I guess it barely qualifies as a song as opposed to a poetry reading since the music is so minimal. But that minimal music is just perfect. I looked in Wikipedia to find out more about the music, and see that they list all the musicians and which songs they participated in, something that I do not recall seeing on Wikipedia for other albums. Adam is credited with synthesizer on "Puppets," so I suppose that is the source of the beautiful, but eerie, gong sounds. Wikipedia also says that the Shaar Hashomayim Men's Choir is featured in "Puppets" which is nice little factoid. I get the sense that "Puppets" is portraying earth's mortals as puppets who really have no control over anything, and God as the puppeteer orchestrating events from above. Of course, this begs the question, why would God allow atrocities such as the Holocaust to happen? The old phrase, "God works in strange ways" doesn't really cut it. at least for me. Leonard might have an answer, but I suppose he would say we need to figure it out for ourselves.

4

vlcoats wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 6:37 am Hartmut... that image was really something!

Thank you.

vlcoats wrote: ↑Mon May 14, 2018 6:37 am It took me a bit to realize the "Barbie", "Ken", etc in the ashes. Since I haven't read the poem yet, I am not sure the reason for 'Dresden" and "Pussycat". Or why the puppets are man and wife. Or even if your picture clue was originally about "The Puppet".

All will be revealed when you read it, I guess. Or, even better, listen to it.

B4-

Yay! This has just crowned my Mother's Day! Not sure when Mother's Day is in other parts of the world, but it is today here in the US (and in Canada also I think).

I love the diploma! My favorite part is the quote from The Stranger Song. I love that line so much, because it tells me that even in his most early years, when most of us are filled with false bravado and the illusion of immortality, he admitted the truth.. even before he really found it out. I love it!

Hartmut... that image was really something! I have no idea how you did the flames. It took me a bit to realize the "Barbie", "Ken", etc in the ashes. Since I haven't read the poem yet, I am not sure the reason for 'Dresden" and "Pussycat". Or why the puppets are man and wife. Or even if your picture clue was originally about "The Puppet".

One thing good about our 8 hour drive to Oregon tomorrow and then back again the very next day is that when it is Dave's turn to drive, I will have the kind of time needed to read more of "Parasites of Heaven". It will be that and the music from Alan that will keep me company!

Vickie (temporarily sitting on my 'laurel's... he has shaken from his head)

Absolutely well done, Vickie! You have earned the below accreditation

I thought I would design another diploma but couldn’t decide which LC school of learning it should come from so I’ve combined two of them with the addition of the live albums and some early vinyl singles. I’ve dated it ahead of time thinking it would be at least another day before you guessed the last question, but I should have known better I hope 4 and Hartmut don’t mind me adding their names to it as they participated in this part of your journey too.


And as promised, here is Leonard reciting Puppets but you don't have to watch it now if you want to do that later -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIMnOG6FDls