Have you heard Dear Heather?
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Jonnie Falafel
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Tchocolatl
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Are you jocking Jonnie? The whole CD is about this, only Tom has a point, the angle from the way these recurrent themes are treated are new.
What Tom? What? Cohen, the next generation? Do you mean Adam finally goes over his Oedip Complex (who could blame him, having such a Monster of Love for father?) and/or maybe Leonard accepts to pass on the torch and not be the sole star of the family (I’m saying anything), and after having done his teeth on “Guinzbâre”
would finally made fructify the family patrimony of a long lignage of Cohen, not to say the genetic inheritance – Adam you got it! Forget about “Jane B.” and focus on “Jane came by”, you have this Cohen touch in your voice, in your way. And you are naturally sexy also.
It is a dream of mine since Adam's Mélancolista. Who knows? (I have a bag full of dreams.)
What Tom? What? Cohen, the next generation? Do you mean Adam finally goes over his Oedip Complex (who could blame him, having such a Monster of Love for father?) and/or maybe Leonard accepts to pass on the torch and not be the sole star of the family (I’m saying anything), and after having done his teeth on “Guinzbâre”
would finally made fructify the family patrimony of a long lignage of Cohen, not to say the genetic inheritance – Adam you got it! Forget about “Jane B.” and focus on “Jane came by”, you have this Cohen touch in your voice, in your way. And you are naturally sexy also.It is a dream of mine since Adam's Mélancolista. Who knows? (I have a bag full of dreams.)
Last edited by Tchocolatl on Wed Nov 24, 2004 3:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."
Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."
Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Hi All again,
Jonnie writes: "Yes Tom - all this talk of death and endings.... I don't hear it in Dear Heather." So then the answer to the question-"Oh Love, aren't you tired yet?"-- is I guess not!
I'll use that as my lead in to what I am thinking about "The Faith" and, in particular, the line I just quoted about the filling of the graves. For some reason it reminds me of the line from "Coming Back to You"-'Since you are a shining light there are many that you see." I would like to capitalize You as I'm confident that it refers the entity LC calls "G-d." The song, "Coming Back to You" is so often looked at as a romantic love song, but I'm convinced that it is a dialogue with "G-d." I guess that it is simply, "the so many" repetition that convinces me that it belongs with its current connection.
But before I discuss that I want to say that I re-read my last post and I'm not happy with what I was trying to convey. I don't have a secret chart to get me to the heart of this or any other matter and I don't look at myself as a teacher of the heart. What I was trying to awkwardly discuss is the whole notion of archetypal criticism that suggests that there are certain conventions that people of a like mind recognize. For example, in "There For You"-Leonard writes:
"Eating food
And drinking wine."
is a certain signal for those who partake of the western tradition that there is something like "communion" (for Christians) or Sabbath (for Jews). This does not indicate that it is a direct signal to a specific meaning. As a little boy growing up in the small northern town that I now find so endearing, while I held that paten under our communicants as an alter boy, it would never have been apparent to me, except that I might have noticed it at the rather primal level of observing certain people partaking in communion. It wasn't until I was exposed to the "Western Creed" and a professor pointed out that Eliot's "Prufrock" observation of "a taking of a toast and tea" referenced the communion experience that I started to think about these things. According to the Catholic Church the sacramental experience is the touching of the divine with the human. Whether you are a believer or not, the notion of the human and divine connecting is poetical material.
it must be extremely difficult for those poor souls who are called upon to render judgment on these poetical works in a music magazine. My daughter, Katie, is a music scholar from a particular angle. It is one that might interest our friends, Tom and Jurica, as it deals with some Central European figures. Kate is a student of the Kodaly method of music which is too much to explain here (I've been trying to attract her to explain it herself). For a very brief simplistic explanation, let me offer that Kodaly traveled with Bartok, the classical Hungarian composer. Let me offer this brief internet explanation:
"In the early 1900's, Kodály and his colleague, Béla Bartók turned their backs on the European music culture of Hungary and focused their attention on their own native folk music traditions. In 1905 they set off on the first of many expeditions to collect and gather traditional Hungarian folk music. Within a year they had arranged and published a collection of twenty folk songs.
Kodaly's work was not immediately accepted by " the establishment" who regarded this folk music to be uncultured, and unrefined. Yet, undeterred, Kodaly went on many more expeditions to collect and transcribe folk music. In a number of his compositions he began to incorporate actual folk melodies that he had gathered. In 1921 and 1937, Kodály and Bartók published two significant books on the subject of Hungarian folk music. The quality and scholarship of these works caused them to receive worldwide recognition in the field of ethnomusicology."
Now, I'm arguing the opposite that Cohen presents his "new" notion of song incorporating both poem and music, meter and melody, intellect and emotion. I am not immune to the emotional impact of Leonard's or any other musician's works. "Recent Songs" in 1979 caught me at a very tender time that I can never separate from the "intention" that Leonard placed into his work. "The Window" and "Canadien Errant" push buttons in my soul that have nothing to do with the work as written. "Dear Heather" is a continually moving experience that informs my whole life not unlike the sudden impact of beloved poets at an early age. I think that it is significant that he leaves us with his last two songs, "The Faith" and "Tennessee Waltz" both as an acknowlegment of our desire for waltz's, and as a melodic gift to those many years that we have loved his sense of "folk" and the nodding toward that inherent sense that recognizes the music in our souls.
Oh yes, and about that connection with "The Faith" and "Coming Back to You"-my vow, my holy place resides somewhere in those environs.
Joe
Jonnie writes: "Yes Tom - all this talk of death and endings.... I don't hear it in Dear Heather." So then the answer to the question-"Oh Love, aren't you tired yet?"-- is I guess not!
I'll use that as my lead in to what I am thinking about "The Faith" and, in particular, the line I just quoted about the filling of the graves. For some reason it reminds me of the line from "Coming Back to You"-'Since you are a shining light there are many that you see." I would like to capitalize You as I'm confident that it refers the entity LC calls "G-d." The song, "Coming Back to You" is so often looked at as a romantic love song, but I'm convinced that it is a dialogue with "G-d." I guess that it is simply, "the so many" repetition that convinces me that it belongs with its current connection.
But before I discuss that I want to say that I re-read my last post and I'm not happy with what I was trying to convey. I don't have a secret chart to get me to the heart of this or any other matter and I don't look at myself as a teacher of the heart. What I was trying to awkwardly discuss is the whole notion of archetypal criticism that suggests that there are certain conventions that people of a like mind recognize. For example, in "There For You"-Leonard writes:
"Eating food
And drinking wine."
is a certain signal for those who partake of the western tradition that there is something like "communion" (for Christians) or Sabbath (for Jews). This does not indicate that it is a direct signal to a specific meaning. As a little boy growing up in the small northern town that I now find so endearing, while I held that paten under our communicants as an alter boy, it would never have been apparent to me, except that I might have noticed it at the rather primal level of observing certain people partaking in communion. It wasn't until I was exposed to the "Western Creed" and a professor pointed out that Eliot's "Prufrock" observation of "a taking of a toast and tea" referenced the communion experience that I started to think about these things. According to the Catholic Church the sacramental experience is the touching of the divine with the human. Whether you are a believer or not, the notion of the human and divine connecting is poetical material.
it must be extremely difficult for those poor souls who are called upon to render judgment on these poetical works in a music magazine. My daughter, Katie, is a music scholar from a particular angle. It is one that might interest our friends, Tom and Jurica, as it deals with some Central European figures. Kate is a student of the Kodaly method of music which is too much to explain here (I've been trying to attract her to explain it herself). For a very brief simplistic explanation, let me offer that Kodaly traveled with Bartok, the classical Hungarian composer. Let me offer this brief internet explanation:
"In the early 1900's, Kodály and his colleague, Béla Bartók turned their backs on the European music culture of Hungary and focused their attention on their own native folk music traditions. In 1905 they set off on the first of many expeditions to collect and gather traditional Hungarian folk music. Within a year they had arranged and published a collection of twenty folk songs.
Kodaly's work was not immediately accepted by " the establishment" who regarded this folk music to be uncultured, and unrefined. Yet, undeterred, Kodaly went on many more expeditions to collect and transcribe folk music. In a number of his compositions he began to incorporate actual folk melodies that he had gathered. In 1921 and 1937, Kodály and Bartók published two significant books on the subject of Hungarian folk music. The quality and scholarship of these works caused them to receive worldwide recognition in the field of ethnomusicology."
Now, I'm arguing the opposite that Cohen presents his "new" notion of song incorporating both poem and music, meter and melody, intellect and emotion. I am not immune to the emotional impact of Leonard's or any other musician's works. "Recent Songs" in 1979 caught me at a very tender time that I can never separate from the "intention" that Leonard placed into his work. "The Window" and "Canadien Errant" push buttons in my soul that have nothing to do with the work as written. "Dear Heather" is a continually moving experience that informs my whole life not unlike the sudden impact of beloved poets at an early age. I think that it is significant that he leaves us with his last two songs, "The Faith" and "Tennessee Waltz" both as an acknowlegment of our desire for waltz's, and as a melodic gift to those many years that we have loved his sense of "folk" and the nodding toward that inherent sense that recognizes the music in our souls.
Oh yes, and about that connection with "The Faith" and "Coming Back to You"-my vow, my holy place resides somewhere in those environs.
Joe
"Say a prayer for the cowboy..."
Dear Joe ~
Once again, you've brought me great pleasure with your perspectives, their depth, and the way you go about expressing them. Informative to boot. I'm glad I checked one more time before closing out for the night here. Thanks.
Is the Kodaly music akin to what's considered gypsy music? Was there ever a movie made about Kodaly and Bartok's music-gathering expeditions?
~ Lizzy
Once again, you've brought me great pleasure with your perspectives, their depth, and the way you go about expressing them. Informative to boot. I'm glad I checked one more time before closing out for the night here. Thanks.
Is the Kodaly music akin to what's considered gypsy music? Was there ever a movie made about Kodaly and Bartok's music-gathering expeditions?
~ Lizzy
Yes, Tchocolatl, I mean it just like that - it's the new musical beginning. It seems that our man is working more than ever, those famous late proliferate years, and we'll get at least one more record. Also, the "new", I don't hear so much melancholy as before there in DH, and the new is not only that at the moment even rejoicing feelings, but the new musical ideas, let's call it that.
Adam? Well, I got only his first record, too much Artist-Formerly-And-Now-Again-Known-As-Prince style for me. You know, friends, let's be honest, who can be better than his father, if his father is L.C. It's easy for Jacob D., he's father is only and simply Robert. I guess I will never turn to Adam.
Adam? Well, I got only his first record, too much Artist-Formerly-And-Now-Again-Known-As-Prince style for me. You know, friends, let's be honest, who can be better than his father, if his father is L.C. It's easy for Jacob D., he's father is only and simply Robert. I guess I will never turn to Adam.
very well put and very true. i agree with your take on eating food and drinking vine, but i disagree about Prufrock.Joe Way wrote:What I was trying to awkwardly discuss is the whole notion of archetypal criticism that suggests that there are certain conventions that people of a like mind recognize. For example, in "There For You"-Leonard writes:
"Eating food
And drinking wine."
is a certain signal for those who partake of the western tradition that there is something like "communion" (for Christians) or Sabbath (for Jews). This does not indicate that it is a direct signal to a specific meaning. As a little boy growing up in the small northern town that I now find so endearing, while I held that paten under our communicants as an alter boy, it would never have been apparent to me, except that I might have noticed it at the rather primal level of observing certain people partaking in communion. It wasn't until I was exposed to the "Western Creed" and a professor pointed out that Eliot's "Prufrock" observation of "a taking of a toast and tea" referenced the communion experience that I started to think about these things. According to the Catholic Church the sacramental experience is the touching of the divine with the human. Whether you are a believer or not, the notion of the human and divine connecting is poetical material.
i'm quite a fan of Eliot (together with Leopardi, my all time favorite poet), and it's very nice on this site to have a fellow eliotist, but i think that his other religious notations have spread too far on his works.
from what i can tell, Prufrock is more about sarcasm than about transcedental emotion... here's the verse:
And indeed there will be time
For the yellow smoke that slides along the street,
Rubbing its back upon the window-panes;
There will be time, there will be time
To prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet;
There will be time to murder and create,
And time for all the works and days of hands
That lift and drop a question on your plate;
Time for you and time for me,
And time yet for a hundred indecisions,
And for a hundred visions and revisions,
Before the taking of a toast and tea.
it's not about 'touching of the divine with the human', i think, but rather using Biblical (time to live, time to die...) form of speach to show how hollow the life in a society like the one he describes is. i think he meant to say: we are living simple, unimportant lives, and give higher meanings to everyday's stupid things (like this attempt to court a lady that he's describing), and everything leads to this highest point in a Mass (where you're supposed to experience 'touch of the divine with the human'), but in the end... it's just a stupid 'taking of a toast and tea'. nothing divine there.
i think it's different with Cohen.
Eating food
And drinking wine
A body that
I thought was mine
Dressed as Arab
Dressed as Jew
O mask of iron
I was there for you
...that sounds quite transcedental.
i didn't mean to argue against you, i mostly agree with you. you're doing a great job deconstructing this album, i just wanted to note this difference of usage of the same symbol in different context the way i think it was used.
Thank you Joe,
I have been hearing "There for you" in a completely new way. I would be very interested to hear more of your take on "Coming back to you".
Joe said;
"Even in your arms I know I'll never get it right
even when you bend to give me comfort in the night"
for me infers a romantic/sexual relationship. I would like to hear more on this Joe.
Rob.
I have been hearing "There for you" in a completely new way. I would be very interested to hear more of your take on "Coming back to you".
Joe said;
I have always looked at it as a romantic love song myself. Lines Like;...I'm confident that it refers the entity LC calls "G-d". The song "Coming back to you" is so often looked at as a romantic love song, but I am convinced that it is a dialogue with "G-d".
"Even in your arms I know I'll never get it right
even when you bend to give me comfort in the night"
for me infers a romantic/sexual relationship. I would like to hear more on this Joe.
Rob.
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tom.d.stiller
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Hi Rob,
there is an interesting aspect of the mystical relationship between a human and her/his G-d we discussed about fifteen months ago on this forum. ( viewtopic.php?p=10537 )
Maybe what has been said there is useful to understand "Coming back to you" even better.
Here I just want to requote the medieval Jewish Philosopher Maimonides:
Tom
there is an interesting aspect of the mystical relationship between a human and her/his G-d we discussed about fifteen months ago on this forum. ( viewtopic.php?p=10537 )
Maybe what has been said there is useful to understand "Coming back to you" even better.
Here I just want to requote the medieval Jewish Philosopher Maimonides:
Maybe this helps. I think Leonard more than just occasionally uses both forms of Love almost interchangeably."When man loves God with a love that is fitting, he automatically carries out all of the precepts in love. . . . It is as if he were love-sick, unable to get the woman he loves out of his mind, pining for her constantly when he sits or stands, when he eats and drinks. Even more than this is the love of God in the hearts of those who love Him and yearn constantly for Him. . . ." (bold italics by me)
Tom
? Does it get accounted to your memory?-
tom.d.stiller
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Tchocolatl
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Ah! The menu here is more appetizing from day to day. Swollen appetite of mine 
Now we are not agreeing on that point, regarding Adam, Tom. It is easy for a Rufus W. to say "I'm fan number one of Leonard Cohen". He is not his son. As far as I know (because I don't know him much) he never covered his daddy nor his mummy and antie (all in the show business) OK they where not as BIG as you know who. Or does he covered them? He is doing show with sister sometimes, and mother and antie. Dad? I do not know. So why Adam and Leonard could not share a stage, or even for Gs a song? I feel it is just because he does not want to be "daddy's little boy" and who can blame him? But meanwhile, I feel it is a lost. I really would like hear him singing some of his famous dad's old song or other, here and then on his next CD. Really-really.
Now we are not agreeing on that point, regarding Adam, Tom. It is easy for a Rufus W. to say "I'm fan number one of Leonard Cohen". He is not his son. As far as I know (because I don't know him much) he never covered his daddy nor his mummy and antie (all in the show business) OK they where not as BIG as you know who. Or does he covered them? He is doing show with sister sometimes, and mother and antie. Dad? I do not know. So why Adam and Leonard could not share a stage, or even for Gs a song? I feel it is just because he does not want to be "daddy's little boy" and who can blame him? But meanwhile, I feel it is a lost. I really would like hear him singing some of his famous dad's old song or other, here and then on his next CD. Really-really.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."
Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."
Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
I agree, Tchocolatl. Who better to cover Leonard than Adam? I would think that Leonard would surely love it. We already know he approves [classic understatement] of Adam's voice. What honour to know your son will permanently be on record singing one of your songs. Far be it from me to tell those Cohens what they should do; however, yes. I believe he should do it 
.
.Hello friends,
Very good discussion-thank you all for adding so much.
Jurica, you are, of course, right about the Eliot "toast and tea" reference-Northrup Frye would probably call it a demonic parody of communion. I'm not familiar with Leopardi-I'll have to look him up. Thank you for the kind words about the "deconstruction"-that is also a term that my wife uses in regard to some of my household projects!
Rob, I am glad you find this of interest-I, too, enjoy the richness that comes from delving into the nooks and crannies of the imagery and sometimes a new perspective increases our hunger and thirst for the good things that art brings.
Tom Stiller, thank you so much for resurrecting that thread about the poem from Book of Mercy-I had missed that entirely and really enjoyed reading it and learning from your excellent observations. (And, as aside, thank you to Byron for posting that wonderful section from Nadel).
Lizzy, Katie returns home tomorrow for Thanksgiving and I will ask her your questions straight away. She keeps promising to listen to DH with an ear to helping me appreciate some of the more subtle musical aspects, but trying to corral her can be difficult.
Tchoco, thank you for still being here and we would definitely miss your presence if you left-so please continue to post. I am very much with Tom and Jurica in appreciating your perspective.
I was at a basketball game tonight and it is late (at least for me) so I hope to post some more of my thoughts at a future date. Just time to make one little observation about the song, Dear Heather. Especially since we talk of other poets, this one brought to mind one of my favorite other poets, William Carlos Williams-I know Leonard likes him. The lyric reminds me of Williams famous poem, "The Red Wheelbarrow"
"so much depends
upon
a red wheel
barrow
glazed with rain
water
beside the white
chickens."
They seem to resemble each other-certainly not content wise, but stylewise. I have been trying to find some clue in the musical accompaniment particularly in the rhythm. It appears to be in duple time, but the organ or calliope or whatever synth sampling that he uses seems to move in another direction-not exactly triple time-but different. I can't make much sense of this one and it is driving me a little crazy. I like it, but I always want to know how Leonard's creative thought process
reached this work.
Talk to you all again soon.
Joe
Very good discussion-thank you all for adding so much.
Jurica, you are, of course, right about the Eliot "toast and tea" reference-Northrup Frye would probably call it a demonic parody of communion. I'm not familiar with Leopardi-I'll have to look him up. Thank you for the kind words about the "deconstruction"-that is also a term that my wife uses in regard to some of my household projects!
Rob, I am glad you find this of interest-I, too, enjoy the richness that comes from delving into the nooks and crannies of the imagery and sometimes a new perspective increases our hunger and thirst for the good things that art brings.
Tom Stiller, thank you so much for resurrecting that thread about the poem from Book of Mercy-I had missed that entirely and really enjoyed reading it and learning from your excellent observations. (And, as aside, thank you to Byron for posting that wonderful section from Nadel).
Lizzy, Katie returns home tomorrow for Thanksgiving and I will ask her your questions straight away. She keeps promising to listen to DH with an ear to helping me appreciate some of the more subtle musical aspects, but trying to corral her can be difficult.
Tchoco, thank you for still being here and we would definitely miss your presence if you left-so please continue to post. I am very much with Tom and Jurica in appreciating your perspective.
I was at a basketball game tonight and it is late (at least for me) so I hope to post some more of my thoughts at a future date. Just time to make one little observation about the song, Dear Heather. Especially since we talk of other poets, this one brought to mind one of my favorite other poets, William Carlos Williams-I know Leonard likes him. The lyric reminds me of Williams famous poem, "The Red Wheelbarrow"
"so much depends
upon
a red wheel
barrow
glazed with rain
water
beside the white
chickens."
They seem to resemble each other-certainly not content wise, but stylewise. I have been trying to find some clue in the musical accompaniment particularly in the rhythm. It appears to be in duple time, but the organ or calliope or whatever synth sampling that he uses seems to move in another direction-not exactly triple time-but different. I can't make much sense of this one and it is driving me a little crazy. I like it, but I always want to know how Leonard's creative thought process
reached this work.
Talk to you all again soon.
Joe
"Say a prayer for the cowboy..."