A Thousand Kisses Deep .. (a Buddhist monk's view)

[daka]

I am a Buddhist monk. I believe that I had a unique personal direct experience of the profound meaning of the lyrics:

Fm C
The ponies run, the girls are young
Fm /c
The odds are there to beat
Fm C
You win a while, and then it's done
Db
Your little winning streak
Bbm C
And summoned now to deal
Fm (/g) Dm-5
With your invincible defeat
Bbm7 C
You live your life as if it's real
Db Eb Fm
A Thousand Kisses Deep

I'm turning tricks, I'm getting fixed
I'm back on Boogie Street
You loose your grip, and then you slip
Into the Masterpiece
And maybe I had miles to drive
And promises to keep
You ditch it all to stay alive
A Thousand Kisses Deep

Fm . . . |C . . . |Fm . /c . |Fm . /c . |
Fm . . . |C . . . |Db . . . |. . . . |

Bbm C
And sometimes when the night is slow
Fm (/g) Dm-5
The wretched and the meek
Bbm7 C
We gather up our hearts and go
Db Eb Fm
A Thousand Kisses Deep

Confined to sex, we pressed against
The limits of the sea
I saw there were no oceans left
For scavengers like me
I made it to the forward deck
I blessed our remnant fleet
And then consented to be wrecked
A Thousand Kisses Deep

I'm turning tricks, I'm getting fixed
I'm back on Boogie Street
I guess they won't exchange the gifts
That you were meant to keep
And quiet is the thought of you
The file on you complete
Except what we forgot to do
A Thousand Kisses Deep

Fm . . . |C . . . |Fm . /c . |Fm . /c . |
Fm . . . |C . . . |Db . . . |. . . . |

And sometimes when the night is slow
The wretched and the meek
We gather up our hearts and go
A Thousand Kisses Deep

The ponies run, the girls are young
The odds are there to beat
You win a while, and then it's done
Your little winning streak
And summoned now to deal
With your invincible defeat
You live your life as if it's real
A Thousand Kisses Deep

I will focus primarily on the most difficult part of the song.....

I'm turnin' tricks, I'm gettin' fixed
I'm back on boogie street
You lose your grip, and then you slip
into the masterpiece
And maybe i had miles to go
and promises to keep
you ditch it all to stay alive
a thousand kisses deep

what does this mean??????????????

I am a Buddhist monk who has a personal experience of these words so when I first listened to them after leaving an eighteen-month solitary retreat in 2001 I was VERY moved by them. A lay Canadian female friend of mine who is a long-term Leonard fan misunderstood the meaning and I explained my understanding. I don't even know if she understood then.

So I have wondered if I should offer up my interpretation or leave it to each person's free interpretation of their "masterpiece", and I have decided to NOT err on the side of caution.

Bob Dylan had stubborn and strong attitude toward his songs, refusing to ever admit responsibility or intention, and I respect this.. he insisted on not messing with the "masterpieces" of his fans, but I suspect Leonard's motivations are slightly different.

Here goes.........

"I'm turnin' tricks"... we all barter our bodies and sell our souls, from prostitutes to poets!, (from merchants to monks)

"I'm gettin' fixed"... in order to anaesthetize, distract, courageously tolerate, our individual nighmarish existence, ("samsara" in Buddhist lingo) we all need our "heroin" (tv, travel, materialism, consumerism, scotch, sex. rock 'n roll etc. etc.)

"back on boogie street".. obvious for Leonard... Mt. Baldy to LA

"You lose your grip"... monks should have their mind constantly, (during each moment), gripping an object called "renunciation"... this is nearly always misunderstood to mean heroin, booze, sex, rock'nroll when it actually refers ONLY to uncontrolled rebirth in samsara (comin' back!)

(...if you don't grip well)...
.. "and then you slip..into the masterpiece".... This part is tough for me to explain because we go off into caves for years, sometimes for the rest of our lives. trying to wrap our minds around this truth...it is this truth that liberates us from uncontrolled rebirth... simply stated, if you can understand deeply (Realize) that the "masterpiece"... which is only the constantly shifting three-dimensional dream-like movie that we are experiencing has no basis in truth, is mere appearance to mind, projected by mind, then it is impossible to grasp at people, places, things of this world and one is liberated....if this wisdom is deep enough we can't "slip" back into the masterpiece.... Leonard did slip back, and so did I once (I later re-ordained) so I am one of the few people who wouldn't need this part of the song interpreted. (I have been there)

"and maybe I had miles to drive"... as a monk we don't arrive until we are liberated or enlightened..this refers to the rest of the spiritual road between now and the destination... between samsara and nirvana

"and promises to keep".. NOT ordinary boy-girl promises.. but a monk's vows which are intended to help him reach his destination

"You ditch it all"... the bottom falls out... you abandon your initial intention, your path, your monkhood, your spiritual security... WHY??????

"to stay alive".... also quite hard to explain because if one does not have a clear understanding (realization) of the nature of reality one cannot write these words nor understand them completely.. Since I experienced the lyrics once in my life and contemplated this experience for over ten years (and I have listened a million times to the song!) and studied the themes in depth, and meditated on them, I do have a slight understanding which still needs to be deepened (or I may "slip back into the masterpiece again!).... now back to.. "to stay alive"...to understand this meaning we need to contemplate what is the opposite of "staying alive"... and it is simply the death of the ego, the scary death of the persona... so we maybe get tired of the hard, often demanding spiritual path.. we choose the easy way, less traumatic way to survive samsara... There are two opposite reactions to wisdom descending on the mind (the realization of "emptiness"..understanding the true nature of reality)... both valid:

1. we curl up in the foetal position and freak out... temporarily terrified because this truth contradicts everything that we have believed...our world shakes..our life and belief systems are ALL completely shaken, and we feel like there is no solid floor for our feet to feel.. but we are scared only for a while

or

2. we sing and dance unrestrainedly, like a madman, full of optimisim and tremendous relief.

Speaking from personal experience, even after some wisdom has descended on the mind and we understand that we are completely projecting our reality (BIG pill to swallow!!!!), because we are VERY attached to our "illusory samsaric dream" (This is both silly and sick) we are in danger of choosing to stay in the dream, much like a magician falling in love with his created apparition of a beautiful woman.

..."A thousand kisses deep"... does this need interpretation? maybe... just to say that the ignorance in our mind that denies ANY responsibility for projecting ANY of the dream-like 3D experiential movie is FULL BLOWN during the process of erotic, sensual intimacy... this is why celibacy is SO important....(because we are so weak)
... all of samasara, however can be experienced "a thousand kisses deep" this is especially dangerously easy for a great poet like Leonard with his hedonistic history.

Leonard Cohen is a Buddha ... (for me)
I know of no other teacher who succinctly teaches these truths... but maybe for many people he is only planting the seeds of wisdom that one day will mature, and liberate. (And I am sprinkling a few drops of water). Leonard reminds me very much of a highly regarded Tibetan yogi/meditator named Milarepa (my avatar)... many hundreds of years ago a book was written called "The Thousand Songs of Milarepa" two volumes. I sometimes think of Leonard as an emanation of this fellow. I highly recommend the book... I read this book for my bedtime stories.. and listen to Leonard during the day.
My avatar shows Milarepa with one hand cupping his ear, aparrently listening to a sound. This is a teaching about the true nature of sound...where is it?...can you find it?...sound is only a momentary impermanent appearance to the mind and it has no other true existence.... sound is a part of our 3D "masterpiece".

This little commentary on one part of the song will probably help to understand the song in it's entirety. I would be interested in some feedback... so I can know whether I should continue to mess with your individual "masterpieces"

Buddhism is NOT a religion (does NOT believe in a creator of mankind, but believes that we are all creators of our own 3D movie-like mere-appearance reality... this is GOOD NEWS!!!..therein lies freedom and optimism... Buddhism is pure philosophy and Psychology... just like a car has a manual to keep it in tune for it's journey, the teachings of Buddha function in exactly the same way. There is a book called "The parallel sayings of Buddha and Einstein". As Science learns, it gradually approaches the pre-scientific ancient understandings and explanations of Buddhist holy beings. Quantum physics is only now beginning to learn the truths that Buddha learned and taught thousands of years ago.

I am happy to try to take some of the mystery out of the lyrics for those who lack confidence in their spontaneous individual interpretations. And I apologize if I have messed up your masterpiece.

For me this song is a dharma lesson, a succinct powerful, and practical review of many of the central and critical beliefs of Buddhism!

Daka

[Steven]

Hi Daka,

Yes, there seems to be Buddhist sourcing to this great Leonard Cohen work and I
appreciate your sharing your interpretation with us. Your interpretation could
be as valid as even Leonard's were he to offer one up. So certainly, your take
on it wouldn't be "second fiddle" to mine, by any means. Here are some thoughts,
as they arise to me, not in any particular order:

"A thousand kisses deep" -- what an enveloping description of full immersion into an
emotional state.

"The masterpiece" -- kind of reminds me of the Buddhist derived way of describing
presence in the face of life, fully as it is, aptly put as a title of a mindfulness content
book called: "Full Catastrophe Living." "masterpiece," to me, really sees to be the
state of full presence, wherever a person is.

"Turning tricks," a metaphor for selling out or rockbottoming it, maybe. I'm with you
on what you said about this.

"back on Boogie Street," you could be right about this as biographical to Leonard
(monastery to the big city).

"you lose your grip" -- I read this as a slippage of constructs. I'd rather not get
into a discussion of Buddhist cosmology, but I don't think that Leonard was
intending to message Buddhist practitioners, per se. I will say that monks that
I know would consider a constant state of concern with "renunciation" to be a
form of grasping, but again, I'd rather not parse Buddhist practice and
interpretation and, besides, I don't know fully what you meant by speaking
of this.

"getting fixed" -- I always heard those words as pertaining to an abortion and
as a generalized metaphor, here in the song.

Reading through your analysis does highlight Dharma inherent in this song.
Any work of art that encourages an insightful, fully engaged way of living will have
Dharma, to some extent. Yes, Leonard's work is profound and I don't in any
way discount the validity of the "unique personal direct experience," that you
represent as having had with it.

With Metta to you and others that might also respond to this thread,
Steven

[daka]

Dear Steven

Thanks for your thoughtful response to my contribution. I have a few responses to your response:

"The masterpiece" -- kind of reminds me of the Buddhist derived way of describing
presence in the face of life, fully as it is, aptly put as a title of a mindfulness content
book called: "Full Catastrophe Living." "masterpiece," to me, really seems to be the
state of full presence, wherever a person is.

I really believe that the "masterpiece" of which Leonard speaks is the 3D world that appears to our mind mistakenly as something that exists "out there" independent of our mind. The wisdom of Buddhism, when it finally descends on the mind changes our view completely. From that moment we take more responsibility for ALL appearances to our mind (our "Masterpiece") and we no longer conceive of it being "out there", independent of our mind. If the understanding that you referred to implies a duality... objects out there... mind in here....then Buddhists view this as what is called "mistaken appearance" and, if you believe it, "mistake conception".

(The full realization, however is gradual and until it is "direct" and perfect and permanent we are in danger of occasionally "losing our grip" on it...and Leonard as always, humble, and honest, owns up to having lost his grip.

"you lose your grip" -- I read this as a slippage of constructs. I'd rather not get
into a discussion of Buddhist cosmology, but I don't think that Leonard was
intending to message Buddhist practitioners, per se. I will say that monks that
I know would consider a constant state of concern with "renunciation" to be a
form of grasping, but again, I'd rather not parse Buddhist practice and
interpretation and, besides, I don't know fully what you meant by speaking
of this.

Yes, this does refer to a "slippage of constructs". The slippage of constructs in question relate to many things:

- the dawning (but not yet perfect) wisdom that I referred to above
- the faith.. in one abilities, one's teacher, one's tradition
- Leonard said once he had washed too many dishes (his Roshi's)
* this happens in retreat... I know!

Leonard does not write to a Buddhist audience, I agree. However, he has spent 30 years as a recoveriing Hedonist on a mission to learn and live by the teachings of Buddha (Buddhism is Philosophy and Psycholgy.. it is not religion). As we all know he is a man of integrity. His lyrics reflect the truth as he now sees it after 70+ years of dedicated research, and they are laced with Buddhist view. He cannot do otherwise, because of his integrity. Therefore having a Buddhist monk-fan active in the forum may be good and may be bad ("There is a Crack in Everything").. I maybe could limit my epistles a little...or maybe, if need be, I can offer to be available for an ex-forum individual private-message biased Buddhist interpretation, enabling those who prefer to maintain their "masterpiece" as is, to do so, and enabling the still curious to alter theirs.

monks that
I know would consider a constant state of concern with "renunciation" to be a
form of grasping

This is true. I was too succinct. if a monk grits his teeth grabbing renunciation too hard he will lose his grip one day. The point that I wanted to make was that this renunciation, or decision to avoid uncontrolled rebirth should eventually be as natural, effortless. and as pervasive as our breathing. Until then we are in some danger of losing our grip on our ordination.

"getting fixed" -- I always heard those words as pertaining to an abortion and
as a generalized metaphor, here in the song.

I have never heard those words related to getting an abortion. The only way I can consider this interpretation of the lyrics is if by disrobing and going back on Boogie Street Leonard has aborted the foetal Buddha he was nurturing. I don't like that interpretation so I will stick with mine. Before I was a monk I was a practicing Hedonist, like Leonard, addicted to anything that could get me feeling good...many drugs, alcohol, people, sex, entertainment, trips, games. Buddha said "You should know suffering"... not that we should suffer as much
as we can, but that we should learn how much of our existence is actually not other than suffering in it's gross and subtle forms. So we all have an unacknowledged constant need to get "fixed"... and we all do...we are very good at it. My guess is that this is the meaning of those lyrics in that song.

I am happy to keep offering my 2 cents worth here but I realize there is a danger of messing with other people's masterpieces. If this seems to happen too much maybe I will just offer to be available for a private personal message monk-fan interpretation... we can see how it goes.

I'd rather not get
into a discussion of Buddhist cosmology

We have two choices, Steve:

1. avoid Buddhist "cosmology" / beliefs, views etc. completely

2. talk about our individual masterpieces

If we want to talk about Leonard Cohen's "Masterpieces" with the intention of ascertaining Leonard's purposeful, profound, poetic and powerful messages, In my humble opinion, we have no choice but to learn his basic Buddhist views.

I am interested in the thoughts of others on this theme.

Regards

Daka

[Manna]

We have two choices, Steve:

1. avoid Buddhist "cosmology" / beliefs, views etc. completely

2. talk about our individual masterpieces

same thing, ha ha.

[daka]

Hi Manna

I am maybe a bit dense today.. a cold and tired,, so forgive me if I don't get it right away...

[quote]same thing .. ha ha/quote](

I am new to the thread and being a Buddhist monk I know how much Buddhism there is in Leonard's life and in his Music, I was a bit surprised to see that, in the forum, the beliefs and views of Buddhism are almost completely ignored, when everyone is sincerely and industriously working very hard to understand his music and reverently appreciating his genius.

Now I am not a preacher, I don't teach Buddhism at all. And there is an unwritten rule in Buddhism that one does not teach Buddhism to anyone unless there have been THREE requests for teachings. When is the last time you had a Buddhist knocking on your door? We don't go knocking on doors!!

I feel inspired to talk about the meanings of the lyrics in this forum not to convert anyone to Buddhism, but to offer, as a gift, a deepened understanding of the lyrics. If Leonard works for one year or more on the lyrics to a song we can assume that he is exceptionally keen on communicating something as clearly as he can. This motivation simply doesn't line up with the motivation of most songwriters who couldn't care less what "masterpiece" you end up viewing in you mind. I may be wrong but I suspect that Leonard is deeply satisfied when we see his "masterpiece" more or less as he saw it.

I really like this forum and I definitely do not want to shake it up at all by talking too much about Buddhism. Maybe when I see a misunderstanding or wish to offer a more extensive Buddhist view I can simply send a personal message to the person and offer a private supplemental monk-fan commentary? ....lets see how it goes...

[friscogrl]

Wasn't this song "A thousand Kisses Deep" actually written in 1995 six years before it was released on TNS? I find the comments on the Budhist interpretation of this song interesting but thinking maybe the song is being overanalyzed.

[Manna]

Hi Daka. Pleased to make the acquaintance. I didn't mean to offend, only to joke. It may not be a good joke.

When you say, "We have two choices:" well, we have endless choices. A working knowledge of Buddhism may aid to understand Leonard, but his influences are many. There's also Judaism and Catholicism, both of which have had profound influence on Leonard as well. Not to mention the religions of sex, F. G-Lorca, etc.

So when you interpret Leonard's work using only the single filter of Buddhism, you may also not be getting the full meaning, and limiting your experience to your own version/interpretation etc. Is that what you're talking about when you use the word masterpiece?

I was also taking your statement outside the world of interpretation of Leonard's work.

the beliefs and views of Buddhism are almost completely ignored, when everyone is sincerely and industriously working very hard to understand his music and reverently appreciating his genius.

Is that what you see us as doing? ha ha ha. Sometimes I guess, maybe. I'm here because I make friends easily with others who like Leonard. I'm not a Leonard Cohen scholar. But by all means, welcome, and I look forward to reading more of your posts. I have been enjoying them.

[Diane]

I feel inspired to talk about the meanings of the lyrics in this forum not to convert anyone to Buddhism, but to offer, as a gift, a deepened understanding of the lyrics.

Hello Daka, and welcome. Thank you! I hope you stay and offer your interpretations. I will certainly read what you have to say.

I can sense dharma reflected in many of Leonard's songs, and although I'm not one for analysing and interpreting, I do like to read others' ideas. Ballad of the Absent Mare, If it Be Your Will, On That Day and There for You spring straight to mind. Are you familiar with Book of Mercy? We have an ongoing discussion, looking at one verse at a time, down in the LC's poetry and novels section. You would be most welcome to add your contributions there also.

I liked your commentary on A Thousand Kisses Deep. However, my idea of "masterpiece" was similar to Steven's. In the I'm Your Man film, Leonard uses the term 'masterpiece' again. As far as I can remember, he talks about how we struggle to live up to certain expectations we have of ourselves, and to create our "masterpiece", but that eventually you "abandon your masterpiece and sink into the real masterpiece". By 'real masterpiece' I am assuming he means acceptance of your life as it is, rather than how you struggle to make it, i.e. you already have your masterpiece.

However, looking at the context of the entire verse in which it occurs in TKD, (after "I'm back on Boogie Street"), "Masterpiece" might indeed be meant the way you have suggested it. Don't know. Maybe both possibilities were intended...

In any case, I don't think you need be concerned about upsetting anyone's personal interpretation of Leonard's words. We can't lose by finding out more.

Diane

[hydriot]

A lay Canadian female friend of mine who is a long-term Leonard fan misunderstood the meaning and I explained my understanding. I don't even know if she understood then.

How can anyone claiming to be a follower of Buddha patronise another human being like this? The power of poetry is that it means different things to different people. There is no such thing as 'misunderstanding' the meaning of poetry. And the arrogance of that second sentence is breathtaking.

And it is ludicrous to assert that Leonard has ever been hedonistic. He has always been one of the most austere and thoughtful people in show business, modest and courteous to a fault.

So, let's prick the bubble of conceit once and for all...

Leonard has repeatedly stated (most recently in London on 20 October 2007, in answer to a question from a Buddhist in the audience) that he is not a Buddhist and that "I have a perfectly good religion of my own." He was on Mt Baldy because that is where Roshi is. Of course there are Buddhist influences in what he writes, but the Jewish influences are stronger.

Secondly, Leonard has explained that Boogie Street is in Singapore. It's a real place with a huge market, and, in the old days, it was the haunt of transexual/transvestite prostitutes. Google it for some interesting tourist impressions. So the line has nothing to do with moving from Mt Baldy to LA. For myself, I read it as a pun: he's back on Boogie Street having to buy and sell his wares again.

This is what Leonard is quoted as saying (on 15 October 2001):

"… during the day Boogie Street is a scene of intense commercial activity … And at night, it was a scene of intense and alarming sexual exchange ... Boogie Street to me was that street of work and desire, the ordinary life and also the place we live in most of the time that is relieved by the embrace of your children, or the kiss of your beloved, or the peak experience in which you yourself are dissolved, and there is no one to experience it so you feel the refreshment when you come back from those moments … So we all hope for those heavenly moments, which we get in those embraces and those sudden perceptions of beauty and sensations of pleasure, but we're immediately returned to Boogie Street."

I do hope Daka will now find the humility to apologise to his 'lay Canadian female friend'.

[daka]

Dear Hydriot

I have asked for an opinion from the moderators before replying in detail to your post. I found it to be emotionally charges, hostile, insulting,patronizing and unpleasant. If I was making all of that up I will respond in one way. If I was not making all that up I will respond in another.

Daka.

[lazariuk]

"and maybe I had miles to drive"... as a monk we don't arrive until we are liberated or enlightened..this refers to the rest of the spiritual road between now and the destination... between samsara and nirvana

"the spiritual road"

Do you think it was this that Leonard was referring to when he spoke of his "long arduous irrelevant useless spiritual investigation"

I haven't read or listened to much of what this Roshi guy. who Leonard spent time with, has to say, but in what I have seen he always seems to focus on someone being embraced. When asked to speak about pollution and the environment he started speaking about how we are when we meet someone new and shake hands. There is something very attractive about how that guy goes about his business.

[lazariuk]

I am happy to try to take some of the mystery out of the lyrics for those who lack confidence in their spontaneous individual interpretations. And I apologize if I have messed up your masterpiece.

Hi daka

It seems that a lot of people are drawn to poetry because they are drawn to wanting a deeper relationship with mystery. Leonard's songs are built pretty well and I am certain they will survive you being happy to try to take the mystery out.

[daka]

Dear lazariuk

thanks for your three comments.. I will try to respond to them

re: the unfortunate and meaningless correspondences initiated by Hydriot's attack I will be delighted if we can erase all three from the forum as they add nothing to it, (yours, his and mine). I have sought some feedback from a moderator because I always distrust my views, "masterpieces". I have also sent off an email to the friend to whom I carefully offered my interpretation of the song, asking whether she felt at all patronized. I trust her to honestly answer. So I will slowly come to a conclusion on how to best respond to his "attack". I will consider any and all additional comments, opinions, then respond.

re your post on Leonard's "spiritual investigation":

"the spiritual road"
YOU SAID......Do you think it was this that Leonard was referring to when he spoke of his "long arduous irrelevant useless spiritual investigation"

I did not hear this comment of Leonard´s in a song, please pass on the reference. But think I understand this comment... Leonard does not want to be a "Buddhist".. he does want to overtly teach Buddhist truths, and it is not necessary to be seen as a Buddhist to do so. (sometimes it interferes... (ask Hydriot).. perhaps in Hydriot's masterpiece Leonard is mostly a hidden Hebrew who has secretly returned to the fold?) In mine, Leonard is a pickle and can never become a cucumber again. (Each to his own masterpiece)

I also regard my 40 year "spiritual road" as a "long arduous irrelevant useless spiritual investigation". When we get out of our own way, stop reifying all of the spiritual concepts that come our way, and stop deifying the unassuming humble holy beings who allow us to bump into them, we have a opportunity to allow the layers of our ignorance to peel away and we come face to face with the ultimate truth, which is actually , an absence of all of the above concepts. opinions. beliefs etc.. Buddha said there is no coming and no going, no death and no life, no samsara and no nirvana.... that we should know that all of life is like a dream... that that is it's true nature (the true nature of our life). Buddha also said "Do not believe what I say because I am Buddha"... perhaps Leonard's wisdom encourages him to minimizes his Buddhism too.

Regarding your point about the "mystery of the poetry":

YOU SAID....It seems that a lot of people are drawn to poetry because they are drawn to wanting a deeper relationship with mystery. Leonard's songs are built pretty well and I am certain they will survive you being happy to try to take the mystery out.

If you re-read my threads you will see that I said very clearly: "I am happy to try to take some of the mystery out of the lyrics for those who lack confidence in their spontaneous individual interpretations. And I apologize if I have messed up your masterpiece".

I fail to see how I could have stated more clearly my wish to allow people to hold on to any interpretations that served them well!!!!!!!! I was addressing ONLY those who were still somewhat dissatisfied with their understanding and who wished to hear my interpretation.

I agree that such people (wanting a deeper relationship with mystery) are a part of the forum and a part of Leonard's fan club in general. I am not one of them. When I hear that Leonard works on a song for years, until the right words manifest, this does not, to me, support the theory that he is content with mystery. I may be wrong, (as many suspect), but I believe deeply that Leonard has a non-mysterious message that he tries extremely hard to convey (ESPECIALLY IN THE LAST FEW ALBUMS.. 7-13 years). In the older ones I do think he was happier with mystery and cared less if his precise philosophical message got through. How can the mystery-loving cult tolerate the likes of "take the only tree that's left and stuff it up the crack in your culture"? There are many more obtuse poets and songwriters out there who will provide more mystery.

The songs that I use to make my point are: Anthem, Closing Time, A Thousand Kisses Deep, Here It Is, The Future... and I could go on and on. To me these are not at all mysterious, and I personally cannot understand anyone delighting in their perceived "mystery" and being disappointed when we try to de-mystify them. Of course we all have the right to experience our own masterpieces, however, I personally make a great effort to try to appreciate each masterpiece that Leonard sweated over for years until he deemed it to be worthy to sing and record. I do not believe that Leonard's career has been founded on a desire to mystify as many people as deeply as possible. (Perhaps those who are very attracted to the mystery of poetry would be a good theme for a new song from Leonard)
When I offer my interpretation of one of Leonard's songs PLEASE do not assume that I am stating that this IS the DEFINITIVE masterpiece that Leonard intended!!!!!!!it is only my interpretation... and when I said once that it was "qualified" this is only because I am a monk and I also disrobed once and it's qualification is limited to those two facts..

Goodnight all
Daka

[lazariuk]

re: the unfortunate and meaningless correspondences initiated by Hydriot's attack I will be delighted if we can erase all three from the forum as they add nothing to it, (yours, his and mine).

well I'll be happy to start with mine.
It didn't seem like Hydriot was attacking you. I think the phrase he/she used was prick the bubble of conceit. When I read that I thought "prick? gee I think these zen guys like to have their ego's hit with a big stick"

"the spiritual road"
YOU SAID......Do you think it was this that Leonard was referring to when he spoke of his "long arduous irrelevant useless spiritual investigation"

I did not hear this comment of Leonard´s in a song, please pass on the reference.

You can watch him here speak about his spiritual investigation.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=byU2wBRShs0&feature=related

perhaps in Hydriot's masterpiece Leonard is mostly a hidden Hebrew who has secretly returned to the fold?) In mine, Leonard is a pickle and can never become a cucumber again. (Each to his own masterpiece)

Hydriot was not, as you say, talking about Hydriot's masterpiece. Anyone who is familiar with what Leonard has said on the subject knows that Leonard knows very little about Buddhism, has no interest in it and has always considered himself a part of the Jewish faith. There was nothing hidden. If you are interested in how exactly he words that you can look at the following interview.
http://www.webheights.net/speakingcohen/jewish.htm

I also regard my 40 year "spiritual road" as a "long arduous irrelevant useless spiritual investigation". When we get out of our own way,

A road can be a way. A spiritual investigation can be something entirely different.

Regarding your point about the "mystery of the poetry":
YOU SAID....It seems that a lot of people are drawn to poetry because they are drawn to wanting a deeper relationship with mystery. Leonard's songs are built pretty well and I am certain they will survive you being happy to try to take the mystery out.
I agree that such people (wanting a deeper relationship with mystery) are a part of the forum and a part of Leonard's fan club in general. I am not one of them.

Daka, I am usually very careful too about what I write. I never said that Leonard is trying to be mysterious. You might have misunderstood me. The universe is mysterious. It is overwhelming how much we don't know and also how much is unknowable. There can be a certain kind of discomfort resulting from that. My suggestion was that it is this wanting to be in a deeper, or maybe I should have said " in a more comfortable" relationship with mystery that draws people to poetry.

I may be wrong, (as many suspect), but I believe deeply that Leonard has a non-mysterious message that he tries extremely hard to convey

I agree to a point. I do agree that from what I have seen that Leonard has worked very hard to be as clear as he possibly can. I don't necessarily agree that it is a message. He points to something and the something is it's own message. or in his words:

I was this little kid and whatever they told me in these matters resonated, and I wanted to be that figure who sang, "This is the Tree of Life." I tried to become that, and that world seemed open to me, and I was able to become that in my own modest way. I became that little figure to myself. So that was poetry to me, and I think it's available to everybody.

You can find that in one of the interviews that I pointed to earlier.

and when I said once that it was "qualified" this is only because I am a monk and I also disrobed once and it's qualification is limited to those two facts..

I have some qualifications too. I am a sinner.

Jack

[linda_lakeside]

Lately, I've not been in the forum all that often, but I think daka has much to offer for us to at least consider what Leonard may or may not have intended. This is an exchange of ideas, right?

And it is ludicrous to assert that Leonard has ever been hedonistic. He has always been one of the most austere and thoughtful people in show business, modest and courteous to a fault.

Yet, this statement is patently ridiculous. We can look back on Leonard's life, before Mt. Baldy, and if you feel he's never lived a hedonistic lifestyle, then I think you've missed something. Much of what Leonard writes about/wrote about came straight from that hedonism. He may not speak of it much now, or it's taken on a different sheen. But the 60's and 70's were hedonistic periods, (running for the money and the flesh), and much of his insight comes from those experiences.

I think I'll start at the beginning, and follow this discussion with interest, but Hydriot, come on!