diction

General discussion about Leonard Cohen's songs and albums
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Fljotsdale
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Postby Fljotsdale » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:46 am

If Paula is a Brummie, it is. If not - NOT!! :lol:

And thank you, Lizzie. :)
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:59 pm

A "Brummie"... a "Brummie"... I don't know, Fljots, if that's what she is or not. I believe she said hers is a Liverpool accent. I don't know if that's it, for sure, or if it is, if that's a "Brummie" :? . I don't know what a "Brummie" is :( . She'll know, though :wink: . All I know is that I love her accent ~ that much I do know :) .


~ Lizzy
Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan
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Postby Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan » Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:10 pm

Fljots, I am now imagining your accent (in these last couple of posts) as sounding like Johhny Rotton from the Sex Pistols. :wink: Am I wrong?
My accent is probably northern Illinois but I don't think of it as a dialect. And if it is there probably won't be too many of you with a frame of reference. I watched a documentary one time on different accents in the united states that was really interesting. I couldn't even understand some of them. I love to be entertained.
In America I don't think the dialect matters. If you have a british accent people think it's cool if it's the Kings English or not. (Or at least I do.) 8)
Kevin©
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Fljotsdale
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Postby Fljotsdale » Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:59 am

lizzytysh wrote:A "Brummie"... a "Brummie"... I don't know, Fljots, if that's what she is or not. I believe she said hers is a Liverpool accent. I don't know if that's it, for sure, or if it is, if that's a "Brummie" :? . I don't know what a "Brummie" is :( . She'll know, though :wink: . All I know is that I love her accent ~ that much I do know :) .


~ Lizzy
A Brummie is a person who was born/brought up in the city of Birmingham (UK)

Paula must be a Liverpudlian, or Liver Bird. :wink: The Liverpool accent was brought into popularity by the Beatles.
Nobody ever managed to bring Brummie into popularity. It is probably the most despised accent in the UK. It is also VERY CLOSE to Shakespeare's accent. So it OUGHT to be considered classy! (Actors who use received English in Shakespeare's plays are WAY out! The guy was a Midlander, not a Londoner, and you don't get the scansion right if you don't use a Midland accent (not necessarily Brummie, but certainly a Midland accent/dialect).
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
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Fljotsdale
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Postby Fljotsdale » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:06 am

Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan wrote:Fljots, I am now imagining your accent (in these last couple of posts) as sounding like Johhny Rotton from the Sex Pistols. :wink: Am I wrong?
My accent is probably northern Illinois but I don't think of it as a dialect. And if it is there probably won't be too many of you with a frame of reference. I watched a documentary one time on different accents in the united states that was really interesting. I couldn't even understand some of them. I love to be entertained.
In America I don't think the dialect matters. If you have a british accent people think it's cool if it's the Kings English or not. (Or at least I do.) 8)
Kevin©
Er... never having listened to the guy/group without switching off instantly, I don't know! :lol: And I can't think of any Birmingham singer you would be aware of - or even that I'm aware of.
Personally, even though my own accent is actually only lightly Brummie - my Mom insisted we speak 'correctly' - I don't think Brummie is ALL that bad... it just tends to make us sound a bit mentally subnormal... (acutely embarrassing when listening to Brummies being interviewed on tv/radio) but, generally speaking, Brummies are definitely NOT mentally subnormal!
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
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margaret
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Postby margaret » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:21 am

A little clarification.

I am the Liver bird here with the Liverpudlian accent.

Paula is a Londoner and sounds quite different, and not like a Brummie! Not that there's anything bad about the Birmingham accent :wink:
Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan
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Postby Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan » Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:38 am

No, what you're describing isn't Johnny Rotten, I don't think. I was joking anyway. I don't expect you to sound like him. At least I hope not. I'm sure all of your accents are charming, lovely and well spoken. I can understand british people when they speak, at least. I know a girl from New Zeland and I can't understand her half the time...or she uses words that I've never heard to describe things. I run into the same thing with the southerners here in this part of Illinois.

Kevin©
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linda_lakeside
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Postby linda_lakeside » Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:56 pm

I think it's like that everywhere. In Canada, there are parts (besides the French) where it's very difficult to understand the accent/dialect. Likewise the US. Then the problem with the US and Canadian accents. English is becoming one muddled language.
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Geoffrey
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Postby Geoffrey » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:01 pm

Tony wrote:
>I would not pronounce "oranges" as "ornjs" but that is just me


Leonard Cohen sang 'perscription', and that is why 'perscription' appears on many lyrics web-sites; for example:

http://getsome.org/guitar/olga/main/c/c ... _wrong.crd

http://www.uppercutmusic.com/artist_l/l ... yrics.html

http://www.lyricsdownload.com/leonard-c ... yrics.html

http://www.azchords.com/c/cohenleonard- ... 74136.html

Listen to me. I don't know why Leonard sang 'perscription', but he did, unfortunately - and most probably not on purpose. By the time it was brought to his notice the LP had likely already been pressed and his faux pas a public fact - and no doubt a source of eternal embarrassment. On one web-page I looked at it said that 'perscription' is amongst the top 100 mispronounced words in the English language. It mentions the Texan dialect which often switches an 'r' and its preceding vowel around in words such as 'perogative' instead of 'prerogative', or even completely cuts out a vowel, as in 'differnce' instead of 'difference' or 'vetern' instead of 'veteran'. Back in the 1960s Leonard was very occupied with correctly enunciating each word. In the 1980s he was more confident with his image and felt secure enough to sing 'there ain't no cure for love', but twenty years earlier he would never have dreamed of singing 'there ain't no chocolates in your boxes any more'. Since both 'pre' and 'per' are legitimate prefixes Leonard simply confused one with the other. Yes, it was unnecessary for Leonard to abbreviate 'oranges' to 'ornjs' because a three-syllabled word fits equally as comfortable into that slot as a two-syllabled one. It is possible he had been drinking, I suppose. It is well-documented that alcohol can cause deterioration to a person's eloquence. If that is the case then it's strange that his producer or manager didn't smell it on his breath and stop him from going into the recording studio. Another strange thing is that in this age of technical wizardry you'd think that it would have been possible to have gone back to the original master tapes and somehow electronically corrected all the mistakes before digitising and burning them onto the 'remastered' CDs. That is why we have all of these advanced sound-editing instruments - that's why they were invented. What shame is there in pulling groundsel out from a bed of rhododendrons? Why let the ship sink for lack of a spoonful of tar?
Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan
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Postby Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan » Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:11 pm

I know that it's speculation on my part but I doubt Leonard would be concerned enough about a dyslexic moment from thirty years ago to fix it.

There are some words that I reverse two letters on unintentionally when I type. I wouldn't prefer it to be that way, and I try to catch it before I post or send it, but I don't think it's a debate worthy issue.

If you are someone who is deeply bothered by this, I suggest that you don't listen to any old blues or bluegrass albums because it will cause you to have a grammatical nervous breakdown.

Kevin©
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Fljotsdale
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Postby Fljotsdale » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:10 am

I'm with Kevin on this one Geoffrey. I understand your reservations about his pronunciation, and I used to share your viewpoint - I was always correcting the pronunciation of other people :oops: - but then I realised it didn't matter. As someone already said, language evolves, and it evolves, to a large extent, because of mispronunciation. Mispronunciation keeps a language alive. Communication keeps it understandable.
It doesn't matter a damn that Leonard sang 'perscription'. Not a single tuppenny damn. We understood what he meant, didn't we?

One of MY favourite hates is people saying pronounciation instead of pronunciation - but even though I wince, I understand why they get it wrong. It is, after all, quite a logical mistake to make. With a great effort, I usually manage not to correct them. :lol:
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
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Fljotsdale
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Postby Fljotsdale » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:16 am

margaret wrote:A little clarification.

I am the Liver bird here with the Liverpudlian accent.

Paula is a Londoner and sounds quite different, and not like a Brummie! Not that there's anything bad about the Birmingham accent :wink:
Northerner (well, Northernish), Midlander, and Southerner. :D VERY different accents, and all understandable to each other. More or less, anyway. :wink:

And thanks for your kind words about the Birmingham accent! :lol:
Only just found this video of LC:
http://ca.youtube.com/user/leonardcohen?ob=4" target="_blank

This one does make me cry.
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Geoffrey
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Postby Geoffrey » Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:18 am

Kevin W.M.LastYearsMan wrote:
>I doubt Leonard would be concerned enough about a dyslexic moment from thirty years ago to fix it.
>
>If you are someone who is deeply bothered by this, I suggest that you don't listen to any old blues or bluegrass albums because it will cause you to have a grammatical nervous breakdown.


Well, mentioning dyslexia and Leonard Cohen in the same sentence, or insinuating that his erroneous vocalisation can be compared to the cackling of an illiterate bunch of toothless hillbilly bumpkin halfwits playing with a washing-board and a couple of ma's old porridge spoons is indeed quite a harsh judgement. All I am doing is trying to find out how an educated man could make such an incredible and inexcusable blunder so that I may have enough information to defend him if Tim or anybody else comes up to me again and says "Perscription!"
Tchocolatl
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Postby Tchocolatl » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:06 am

Linda, there is some French Canadians that I know who speaks a better "international English" (i.e. like the man/woman who reads the news) than many English Canadians. Or Americans. Or etc. But as prejudices are more difficult to break than an atom, I won't try to break you never-ending muddy prejudice about French Canadians. I just want set the reality to "normal" in regard of your hum "comments" I guess it could still be put in this category.

Geoffrey : Take your prescription, forget about all this until you are going well, will you. We'll talk about it all after, dear. Geez. Error is human, man. You may not able to seize the concept right now, but take deep breath, relax and let go. (Jesus).
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linda_lakeside
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Postby linda_lakeside » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:24 am

Oh, Tchoco, I'm well aware that there are many, many Canadians fluent in French or at least bi-lingual that can speak a far better Int'l English than anyone present.

However, I bring Quebec up, not as a prejudice but to differentiate between 'dialect' and 'another language'. There is a big difference. I remember you posted some 'Newfie jokes' once, and Newfoundlanders do have a 'different dialect'. But, French is French, there's no way around it. What I'm saying is, I could probably understand a 'Newfoundlander' despite his/her heavy 'dialect', but I'll never (not at this juncture in my life) ever understand the 'language' of French. Of course, the fault is mine (and that of the Federal Gov't for not making it mandatory for the little ones to learn it in school).

As for the 'prescription', I think it's a common error, as it's easier to say 'perscrption', than 'prescription', but yes, at this point, what does it matter? It never mattered, because English is a language heavily influenced by the 'dialects' of other countries/areas. Just look at how we, once taught in school to spell and speak in 'the King's English' have now evolved, and embrace the 'American'. All those 'z's are replacing the 's's we once knew so well.

No, Tchoco, I'm not prejudice re: the French, merely envious. I once spoke Danish, but because my Father discontinued speaking to me in that language, I forgot it. So, I think, in Canada, we should all be immersed in our second formal language.

Linda.

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