nevermind?

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esthergoldberg
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:13 am

Re: nevermind?

Postby esthergoldberg » Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:04 am

That was a really good find, agerm52. My impression was that this a song about the victims of attempted genocide. The references to the meticulous cataloguing of possessions, songs, etc. reminded me of how the Nazis did exactly this in connection with their plans to exterminate all Jews. They planned a "Jewish Museum" where they would keep artifacts of this extinct race. Then the reference to "the games our soldiers played" evoked the Roman soldiers gambling at the bottom of the cross when Jesus was crucified, and Christianity and western civilization which radical Islamists are now targetting. I discussed the Islamic culture as victims of the Crusaders in my first post. The Partisan, which Nevermind echos, is about a fighter in the French resistance during WW2. So what the song seems to me to say is that you never succeed in wiping out an entire people or ideology or even an idea (freedom in the Partisan). Always, there are Partisans who live amongst the conquerers waiting for "men to come out of the shadows" to fight their cause. Someone once said that history is written by the victor, which I thought was what the reference to truth and lies was about.
Bec
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Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2014 12:07 am

Re: nevermind?

Postby Bec » Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:26 am

This might be a dumb question, but what do you think "the stones we cut" refers to? The first times I listened to the song, it always reminded me of prehistoric men... like the arrogance of those considered victorious, viewing the foe as primitive; I thought "our spoons our knives" was something along those lines.
Last time I was listening to it I was seeing tombstones...

As my English is quite poor sometimes, I have another question: does "I dug some graves/ You’ll never find" mean "I have killed people & you will never find out" or could it also mean "I had to bury friends/ members of my family, but they are safe & you won't find them"? With the facts and lies following I thought it's about the ambiguity.... ? but my English sucks
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Mannheim & Hamburg 2014
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HelenOE
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Joined: Fri Mar 22, 2013 6:06 am

Re: nevermind?

Postby HelenOE » Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:08 am

Bec wrote: As my English is quite poor sometimes, I have another question: does "I dug some graves/ You’ll never find" mean "I have killed people & you will never find out" or could it also mean "I had to bury friends/ members of my family, but they are safe & you won't find them"? With the facts and lies following I thought it's about the ambiguity.... ? but my English sucks
I'm inclined to think it's the latter:
My woman's here
My children too
Their graves are safe
From ghosts like you
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: nevermind?

Postby Tchocolatl » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:13 pm

When I listen to it, I find that Nevermind is a really scary song. Leonard Cohen's voice has my hair on the back of my neck stand up.

An appropriate Halloween atmosphere for this time of year.

As I keep saying (when I said :repeat, repeat ; I wonder what he meant) I see those songs like holograms, with a piece of image of this, than it desapeared and the remaining forms are used to create an image of that, and so on, the song is moving forward in this fashion.

Really intriguing, and the point of view of many others are necessary.

On the first listening, I heard about the holocaust of the first nations (also).

And now, having read this thread, I hear about the profanation of graves by archeologists.

So now, it brings me back to the central notion of respect in regard of all those paths.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
esthergoldberg
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:13 am

Re: nevermind?

Postby esthergoldberg » Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:48 pm

It follows from my premise that this song is in large part about the possibility of the extinction of Western Civilization, that "the stones we cut" refer to the Renaissance sculptures one sees throughout western Europe, including in its Churches. It could also refer to the Iconography of eastern Europe. The "songs we sang" - for me - comprise the pop/rock/rap that Islamists fear is seducing their young people. (I won't even get into the allegations that the folks at Gitmo "tortured" the prisoners there by playing Christina Aguillera incessantly. Ironically, my then teenage daughter tortured me in exactly the same way.)
esthergoldberg
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Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:13 am

Re: nevermind?

Postby esthergoldberg » Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:59 pm

On the other hand (fortunately I have only 2) from the perspective of Islam, "the stones we cut" might refer to the pyramids of Egypt and "the songs we made" would refer to Arabic music. Modern classical music is heavily influenced by the East, though mostly India, I thought.
Tchocolatl
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Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: nevermind?

Postby Tchocolatl » Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:48 pm

As I see the songs as holograms, for me, many possibilities are.... possible.

It is always the end of an epoch, centuries after centuries, decades, after decades, and with their appropriate mourners, like for any civilized people.

Now, for some reason I was not "ready" to write it, maybe - not maybe : certainly - I was thinking this was too personal. But ay! It is everywhere on the papers, he? Why...

At the first reading, I also read about this miserable affair of his nest egg and the cuckoo, and how he get out of trouble. To say the less.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
esthergoldberg
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:13 am

Re: nevermind?

Postby esthergoldberg » Mon Oct 06, 2014 10:46 pm

I'm not sure I quite follow you, Tchocolati. I take the verse that Agerm52 cited "No man can see/The vast design/Or who will be/Last of his kind") as what Nevermind is about. That we never learn the name of the narrator indicates to me that the war or struggle is one of identity. My previous post was simply trying to address Bec's question regarding the meaning of the phrase "stones we cut." I don't know if my reading is correct or the only one. As you say, poetry is about the creation of images in the mind of the particular reader or listener, and these are the images that occurred to me.
Tchocolatl
Posts: 3781
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Re: nevermind?

Postby Tchocolatl » Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:34 am

My previous post was not in answers to your answer to Agerm52 (phew!)

I meant that though many other interpretations may be relevant, I have the idea that the entire song is also an account of the troubles he encountered with his former financial managers. All the metaphors fit.

*

But all the previous posts are far from being lost to me. In the contrary.

*

Now, I must be out of here for a while. It is too time consuming, no, more precisely, I am much too much chatty. Yes. That's the truth. So please people, do not take it wrong if I do not answer.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Luhter
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jul 15, 2015 12:50 pm

Re: nevermind?

Postby Luhter » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:26 pm

Listening to it and reading Cohen background, it's clearly this song is about Israel, how he as a Jew felt betrayed by their actions against Arabs and in the region over the years. He basically took part in the 1973 conflict, for the Israeli army. While he was ordained as a Buddhist monk, he kept his old religion (" I live among you / Well disguised").

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