Jesus

Ask and answer questions about Leonard Cohen, his work, this forum and the websites!
Sohbet
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Jesus

Post by Sohbet »

Dear Lizzytysh, I'm sorry. I don't have a link although I'm sure a search would easily bring you ample material. You might want to try a book called The Historical Jesus by the same John Crossan. He is a Professor of Biblical Studies at DePaul University. Happy Reading!
jeannieb
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Post by jeannieb »

Domenick Crossan is one of the foremost biblical scholars now writing. You can find him in by searching at Amazon.com or my personal favorite, Powellsbooks.com in Oregon.

To me the most remarkable thing is why the record of Jesus' life ever came down to us. He was a nobody who championed the poor, the sick, and disenfranchised. Not someone whom the historians usually write about.

I have been agnostic for much of my life. I still strugle daily with what I beleive, as I think all truly honest people do.

Leonard changed the wasy I thougght about Jesus with the words in Suzanne


"And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water
and he spent a logn time watching from his lonely wooden tower
and when he knew for certain
only drowning men coud see him
he said all men will be sailors then,
until the sea shall free them.
But he himself was broken
long before the sky would open.
Forsaken
almost human
He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone.

These words took me beyond my adolescent rejection of Jesus and made me realize that his story was part of my own blood myth. Beyond my wisdom.
"...and for something like a second, I was cured, and my heart was at ease."
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lizzytysh
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Post by lizzytysh »

That's okay, Sohbet :) . Thanks for the additional information, regardless.

Jeannie ~ Thanks for the sites you've recommended, as well as your own interesting and enlightening commentary [from a Westerner's perspective] of how that all came together for you, via Leonard's song. What you say is true about our own blood myth and what many of us were born into.

~ Elizabeth
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Makera
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Post by Makera »

Heretic~

Your question, "Jesus who?", (ironic, rhetorical or not) is a very good one. The name(s) and titles used by, and attributed to, him are quite revealing. The name is actually Y'eshua, in Hebrew, (as revealed to his mother by Gabriel) meaning he who 'saves' or 'makes whole'. In Hebrew tradition he would have been known as 'Y'eshua ben Yoseph'.

He called himself the "Son of Man": product/fruit/incarnation of Man=Adam/Eve.

Mohammed (in the Koran) called him the "Son of Mary"and also acknowledged the virgin birth. [FYI: parthenogenesis does occur in, and therefore not contrary to, nature/natural law]

He is remembered as saint "Iesa" in India during his 18 years travelling through (and training with spiritual masters in) India, Persia and Egypt --prior to his return to Judea/Palestine.

Jesus "of Nazareth", so-called, should be "Nazarite". Nazarites, in Hebrew tradition, were consecrated ones to a holy purpose. Taking vows of abstinence from certain foods and drink and not cutting their hair.(ref. Num.6)

If you read Numbers ch.6, it may reveal for you another layer as to why John the Baptist (his cousin) called him the "Lamb of God".

"Jesus Christ" is really a contraction of "Jesus -who became the- Christ"
i.e. Jesus was the man (the 'pattern',soul entity);Christ is the Power (of the Creative Force/God/ the Father.) The messenger became the Message. He atoned:at-oned with the God-Mind (his choice & responsibility) The following is an exerpt from the book: "Edgar Cayce's Story of Jesus", selected & edited by Jeffrey Furst:-

"Q.........It has been given that Jesus lived and died a man; also, it has been given that 'God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son'. Please explain these things to us. How may we regard the truth of Jesus in relation to the Jewish and Christian religion, and to all other religions of the world?
"A. In that the man, Jesus, manifested in the world the Oneness of His will with the Father, He becomes -- from man's viewpoint -- the only, the first begotten of the Father. Thus He is the example of the world, whether Jew, Gentile or any other religious force.(364-9)"

"Hast thou not found that the essence, the truth, the real truth is One? Mercy and justice; peace and harmony. For without Moses and his leader Joshua [that was bodily Jesus at another time in the earth] there
is no Christ. Christ is not a man! Jesus was the man; Christ, the messenger; Christ in all ages: Jesus in one, Joshua in another, Melchizadek in another; these be those that led Judaism! These be they that came as that Child of Promise, as to the Child of Promise; And the promise is in thee, that ye lead as He has given thee, 'Feed my sheep'.(991-1)"

***This should be of particular interest to those good honest doubters of the historical facts:-

'Few people are aware that there is in existence today, in the Archives in Rome, a description of Jesus. It is contained in a report written nearly two thousand years ago, by a Roman, Publius Lentulus, to his Emperor, Tiberias. It reads thus:
"There has appeared in Palestine a man who is still living and whose power is extraordinary. He has the title given him of Great Prophet; his disciples call him the Son of God. He raises the dead and heals all sorts of diseases.
He is a tall, well-proportioned man, and there is an air of severity in his countenance which at once attracts the love and reverence of those who see him. His hair is the color of new wine from the roots to the ears, and thence to the shoulders it is curled and falls down to the lowest part of them. Upon the forehead, it parts in two after the manner of Nazarenes.

His forehead is flat and fair, his face without blemish or defect, and adorned with a graceful expression. His nose and mouth are very well proportioned, his beard is thick and the color of his hair. His eyes are gray and extremely lively.

In his reproofs, he is terrible, but in his exhortations and instructions, amiable and courteous. There is something wonderfully charming in this face with a mixture of gravity. He is never seen to laugh, but has been observed to weep. He is very straight in stature, his hands large and spreading, his arms are very beautiful.

He talks little, but with great quality and is the handsomest man in the world." '

(This was the equivalent of a photographic report today. The detail had to be extensive.)

This report matches Cayce's descriptions, given in the early '30s, without any knowledge of the existence of the Roman's one. Discover for yourselves.

~Makera
Linda
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Post by Linda »

What a wonderful topic and discussion here, very interesting reading.

What comes to mind for me on the question of, "who is Jesus?" is the prophecy in the old testament of the coming of a Messiah. Hundreds of years before His birth. Isaiah 7: 14, Behold, the virgin shall bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanual, is one that comes to mind. The prophecy of a deliverer from sin runs through the old testament from the beginning. Therefore, I have had questions over the years, but have to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, the Messiah, sent to be our Savior, for I believe the Bible to be the inspired word of God.
Linda
Sohbet
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Post by Sohbet »

Dear Linda, Isaiah is wonderful. However, when reading the Bible, one must remember all the oral tradition, years of recounting, and translation. I believe the word "virgin" in Isaiah was mis-translated. The word used by one of the Isaiahs (there were three, all ascribed to one) was the word that meant "young woman." I think it was when the Hebrew was translated to the Greek that this unfortunately word choice, with all the attendant problems, occurred. Jesus never said this, you know. There is also the issue of whether Jesus was the fulfillment of the prophecies or whether once he was a fact, people searched the scriptures for things that would fit. Certainly there are eerie coincidences, such as the "suffering servant" passage. Much to think about but the Jesus story has been used for their own purposes by many over the years, especially after Christianity lost its early purity (women leaders, total pacifism and communism) and became allied with state powers. When was that, third or fourth century? Help me here, scholars. I am afraid, from what I have read, that the description of Jesus by Josephus is pretty much acknowledged not to be authentic. Hooray! Does the child of God have to be one of the beautiful ones (maybe a beautiful loser). There is another description, supposedly by a contemporary, that says he was short, hunched, homely and had scanty hair. I wonder if we would have revered pictures of him that looked like that? Hear me, Holman Hunt!
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Makera
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Post by Makera »

Sohbet~

Did you not read the quote I included from the Roman, Publius Lentulus, to his Emperor, Tiberius? I did not mention Josephus, who, as a Jewish historian, was not likely to write favourably about anything anti-establishment. A Roman, however, had no such vested interest, prejudice or fear. By that very fact it is compelling and credible evidence.

The quibble over 'virgin/maiden/young woman' is immaterial given that a young unmarried woman of Jewish traditional family and society of those times was, ipso facto, a virgin. 'Betrothal' did not mean 'shacking up' either!
As Linda rightly pointed out, Isaiah (and/or those under,and succeeding, his tutelage) had foretold the coming of the Messiah. The Essenes prepared the way, having dedicated themselves to that purpose. The term "Essene" means 'expectancy'.

No one ever sees what they do not wish to; that is called 'free will': their gift from their Maker.

~Makera
Sohbet
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Jesus

Post by Sohbet »

Wandering in these ancient writings is very interesting but one has to be wary of getting lost. Who knows the truth, but from what I have read, the very lovely description of Jesus by Publius Lentilus is a fabrication. You may want to consult such a serious publication as the Catholic Encyclopedia, available online. Just a search with this supposed person's name will bring a lot of information. Perhaps the Jesus in one's own mind's eye is the best Jesus, and anyway, what does it matter what he looked like? The teachings are what we need to think about. I'm not sure if this link will work but it's a place to get started. Enjoy! http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09154a.htmt..
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Makera
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Post by Makera »

Sohbet~

One who would not read all or carefully what I have written is hardly a credible advocate for reading the opinions of others. Selective comprehension is not a 'right', it is a self-induced condition. Perhaps you could ask yourself, 'why would someone fabricate such a detailed description' or, more significantly, 'who would have the most to gain from its expurgation'.

Also, it is not "what" he looked like that is important, as much as 'that' he looked as he did to witnesses. And, strange as it may seem to you, some
can be strengthened and edified by discovering that their mental picture/memory was not their imagination after all!

For those who may not know, the Roman Catholic Church suffered its greatest setback under the vile 'patronage' of the Emperor Justinian and his wife Theodora in the 6th century. Their true crimes against the original Christian teachings you will not find in a Catholic Encyclopedia. Have you heard of Origen? One of the early, greatly revered,Christian Fathers of the early church whose teachings were anathematized by the Justinian controlled Church. The offence was reincarnation.

"For nothing is secret that will not be revealed, nor anything hidden that will not be known and come to light. Therefore, take care how you hear. For to him who has will more be given; but from him who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away." Luke 8:17-18

~Makera
Sohbet
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Post by Sohbet »

Dear Makera, I get the distinct impression you think I have not revered your opinions sufficiently. Please remember Thomas Acquinas' teachings on argument. Even those who don't like much of the Catholic Church usually find those well-known teachings helpful. I always like to learn from others, but I don't like the acrimonious tone of this discussion so I think I will not participate any more.
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tomsakic
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Post by tomsakic »

(Hey Sohbet, you're back! I didn't see you here at least 1 or 2 year I believe! Do you still listen the same song in various tours versions? :D I'm glad to have you again with us... Hope yu remember me. Just go on, I'll not intrude with my comments anymore... :shock: Tom)
Sohbet
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Jesus

Post by Sohbet »

Dear Tom, That was a nice message! I can't believe you remember my old posts. Yes, I still do that. Now I have a new computer with a CD burner, so I'm going to make compilations where I have the same song in different versions on the same CD one after another. I think I'll try to get concerts I don't have before I do this. It's nice to be back. We had some excellent discussions on the old board. Best, Sohbet
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Makera
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Post by Makera »

Truth finds you where you are, not where it IS.

~Makera
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linmag
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Post by linmag »

Hello Sohbet, I can't believe someone else actually does that :D I have a playlist for my media player of just different versions of Bird on the Wire. I play it as background when I'm doing other things on the PC. Some day I'm going to expand it to include all the versions I have, and put them into chronological order so that I can feel how the song has grown over the years.
Linda

1972: Leeds, 2008: Manchester, Lyon, London O2, 2009: Wet Weybridge, 2012: Hop Farm/Wembley Arena
Linda
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Post by Linda »

The truth, another interesting topic. Leonard would die for the truth in his secret life. That is most likely what we will have to do to find out if what we believe to be true is true in the bible.

You make interesting points Sohbet. How accurate were the stories after the passing of them from one to another up to the written accounts and then the translations, that has alway been in the back of mind in the "this is how it is" religious up bringing I have had. Questions, questions. But as you go through life, you find out there are no answers to everything, faith like a child is actually the most beautiful. Follow your heart.

As for the picture I was always led to believe there was no discription of Jesus written anywhere. I have a problem with pictures, statues, etc. it is from anothers mind, and for something as personal as God, Jesus the image presented means nothing to me other than a symbol.

Interesting discussion on the old board. Most definitely. That is what led me to explore this Leonard Cohen guy, that I had discoverd on t.v one night singing Dance me to End of Love.
Linda
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