Back Again

Ask and answer questions about Leonard Cohen, his work, this forum and the websites!
George.Wright
Posts: 1874
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2002 3:37 pm
Location: Bangor, N.Ireland

Back Again

Post by George.Wright »

At last, i'm back on the Board proper.
Some bas*ard called Here... has given me a blaster virus, i'm back at the weekends at home, but can only get on the net for 1 min or so. Not even G.Wright can write a poem in this time ( although at times it's close, GW cannot type so well).
I must put my hat up to Ben Kelly, a recent member for inspiring and encouraging me.
Ves, you love stirring the cream, but in only one direction.
Liz, you must learn to relax.
AAAgggggggggggggh..................One minute to go
Georges
I am a right bad ass, dankish prince and I love my Violet to bits.
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25503
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh »

Hey Georges ~

I already know how to relax, so "must learn" won't be necessary. However, along with relaxing, I am also able to get upset, and express my discontent where I strongly feel it.

I found watching some people pick apart a simple and sincere thank-you from Leonard to be both rude and absolutely lacking in decorum, reminiscent of a heckler. There are many parallels I could draw that I haven't. I'll draw just one for the religious ones. If the pastor/priest/rabbi printed a thank-you in the bulletin for something, would the next week's bulletin carry criticisms and negating analyses of it from the members? At least have the decency to not disrespect this man in public like that! That is incredibly poor taste. He is 69 years old, this is HIS birthday, and he's a man who should be a revered elder of ours. He's also a monk, who left the monastary out of a LACK of hypocrisy, to come down and record even more for our pleasure [and criticism!], and even as we speak, is again recording more for our pleasure! But, hey, let's trash him cuz he didn't say what we wanted to hear! Whatever in the heck that was! If you CLAIM to love him and his music, then show it! A little bit of respect goes a long ways.

Having been accused of a number of things myself, I find these complaints to be the most egregious of anything I've seen here yet. Discussing them, and talking, complaining, and grousing behind the scenes, in e-mails and PMs, on Instant Messaging, or in the Chatroom windows, or even in the main room there, is one thing. To disrespect Leonard in such a manner as this, however, defies imagination. At least mine. The sense of "entitlement" that underlies the criticisms is akin to those who capture and pin butterflies to corkboard, as though satisfying themselves is all that's important.

Last year we sent messages, and he didn't respond. REGARDLESS of the fact that I have unconditional, high regard for Leonard [for which I do not feel apologetic], his message was simple and beautiful, and those who wrote should feel damn grateful that they heard back from him at all.

Their [the naysayers] feelings and responses are classic "fan" behaviour. What I saw there is one of the reasons I have always felt uncomfortable and resisted being considered a "fan." I do feel comfortable with calling myself a Leonard appreciator. If I knew more of the many facts surrounding his music, plus "everything" he's done, I would call myself an afficionado. However, "fan" is what I saw happen on that thread. Nothing is ever enough. It's all about "please me," "give me," etc., ad nauseum ~ regardless of what's going on in the performer's life! If Leonard toured and had to part early from performing or autograph-signing due to fatigue, there would be no understanding. Likewise, with cancelling a concert due to illness. It's the kind of thinking that leads to "just one piece of his hair for my collection," "one piece of his tailored suit for my collection," and the performer ends up man-handled or torn to shreds.

Would they complain about how he signed an autograph? Probably! Because he hadn't indulged them more in some request? Probably! The list goes on, but I know you know what I mean. His age ["respect your elders" ~ particularly one you reportedly revere]; the fact that he is why we are here; his are the words that have sustained many of us; his overflowing schedule; nothing, made any difference in their reactions to his message to us. The fact that we poured out our hearts....well, DUH! ~ we do know a tad more of him than he does of us! And, if he were going to "pour his heart out," it sure wouldn't be on a public forum and to multiple people! It's not his style to begin with. Sentimentality is not how he expresses himself. It's disgusting to me that anyone had, much less registered, a solitary complaint!

Democracy is coming to the USA. Isn't that the truth. I wouldn't be surprized if the complainers are all citizens of the U.S. Well, we sure exercised our right to free speech on that one. Yet, even so, acted amazed and offended to get a reaction? Now there's "entitlement" for you. I'm not saying it's a good thing for people to opt to leave, yet to leave because someone "got into it" with you when you came throwing garbage directly at the person the site is based upon, I also think speaks to the immaturity of the person who bolted. That may forever remain a difference of opinions; however, I stand by what I've posted.

Analyzing one of the members' poems, or even one of Leonard's songs, poems, or drawings, is one thing ~ and quite different from this. But to pick apart a personal thank-you, and accuse it [and Leonard by implication] of being insincere, etc. is too much. In my opinion, the sudden departure was a result of someone not being able to take, themselves, what they dish out. There was certainly no hesitation to throw mud in Leonard's direction, yet when someone else becomes angered, and confronts it head-on, the offender gets offended, assumes the victim position, and leaves.....garnering sympathy along the way.

Why anyone would not anticipate, or would be surprized by, a strong response to the attempts to invalidate Leonard's message to us is what surprizes me. This is the Leonard Cohen site, after all. There just may be at least one person on it willing to defend him in the face of unjustified and uncalled-for insults. It's no wonder Leonard feels uncomfortable amidst "fans." Who in the hell wouldn't when you're subjected to this kind of ridicule when you don't "measure up" according to "their" expectations! At least friends don't criticize your every word. They "sort the chaff from the grain, keep what is worth keeping, and with a breath of kindness, blow the rest away." With Leonard's thank-you, every word was grain and worth keeping. I saw no breaths of kindness with those who considered it all chaff.

I wouldn't have posted this, except for your bringing it up again. If one sees it as heavy-handed, it's no more heavy-handed than what I saw, in response to Leonard's brief and lovely sentences written especially for us.

~ Elizabeth
User avatar
Paula
Posts: 3155
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2002 1:20 am
Location: London

Post by Paula »

I agree with the bulk of Lizzie's text. The mere fact that he took the time to read our messages and then write a brief thank you was more than enough for me. I don't know what some of you were expecting but he could really do no more than he did.

I know if I were him and I saw some of the responses my reaction would be "well f*** you too". Thanks to Jarkko for instigating the link but I think Leonard will think very carefully before getting involved again and that would be a shame.

If you check out other sites dedicated to singer/songwriters there is absolutely no feedback from them and we are lucky enough to get feedback and we throw it back in his face.
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25503
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh »

That was my thought, too, Paula, as far as other sites. I thought, "I'll bet if you go to the Bob Dylan site, you won't find a personal thank-you back from him on his birthday."

I've never been to any other sites except his and Loreena McKennitt's, and both only briefly, one time, in response to someone having said something about the site. We are fortunate here to have such a personal connection, with Leonard's contributing drawings and poetry, and then his personal response.

My thought, as well, was, "We can probably forget about same time, next year" on that! ~ whether it's rethinking on Jarkko's part to deliver the messages, or on Leonard's part to respond to them.
Linda
Posts: 557
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:10 pm
Location: USA

Post by Linda »

I will admit, this is starting to scare me. Will you please quit blowing this out of proportion. Anyone who knows me from this forum knows better than what you are saying. I have the utmost respect for Leonard and love his work. You are pulling nothing short of slander on me here Lizzytys. Stop! Read my posts!
Linda
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25503
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh »

Slander :shock: ? "You are pulling nothing short of" melodrama :shock: , Linda, with that one. I've read your posts and have no need of rereading them. Utmost respect? Please reread your own posts on that issue.

It's true that Leonard has created many quotable quotes for all of us. However, as for your "utmost" respect for Leonard and his work, doing a quick, mental recount, I come up with: you disapprove of his use of profanity and sexual references; you've made it a point that you have no sympathy for him with regard to women, with all the women he's had, when you know from your own, one, long-term marriage, what commitment is all about; you had some negative things to say about his "recent" drawings; I can't recall your reactions to his "recent" poems; and you don't like his earlier albums, the voice or something bothers you. I question how much you've even really listened to these. You certainly couldn't have listened to the lyrics! Add to all this, your reaction and response to his kindly message to us, and I find "utmost respect" to be the wrong term, and I have no idea what the correct one would be.

You're a pretty recent newcomer to him and his work, [somewhere in the middle, between 0 and 5 years, definitely past 2], which isn't an issue in and of itself ~ except the kind of deep and abiding respect that comes with time and experience. "Going to" someone for the "encouragement" to not become bitter, with the way things are in your personal life, or in the world, can develop a deeper kind of respect and loyalty, than merely listening because it sounds so wonderful in your world.

Likewise, over the long term, there are many memories, of which Leonard's music has been an integral part. Being with him for many years, and coming through many difficult times. Listening to his music in the middle of "a long, sleepless night" for comfort and consolation, and "assurance" that someone else knows your pain, and that you will survive. Crying through the songs, crying through your pain. Often in the middle of day, as well. Singing loud, singing clear. These things create a kind of patina that come only through time and experience. There's also a kind of understanding and fondness that comes from knowing how difficult life can be when you're "out there," head-on with its struggles, that creates an empathic response to, and relationship with, Leonard's music and his story, because there are certain things you know, from having been there yourself, and then watching and seeing how he has dealt with travails creates an even deeper respect.

As for "slander," I really don't think you've noticed how over the past two years, I have quite intentionally stopped short of personally attacking you. There are many times I could have said many things, but have made effort to stick to the issues vs. the personality. I've resisted even postings of this nature. If one were to recount your posts regarding me, however, one would find [blatantly so] that not to be the case with you. IF I wanted to take the time and trouble, I could easily compile a daunting list of personal attacks from you. "Slander" by the way has to have the effect of interfering with one's ability to earn a living. Most have come to the conclusion that the most important thing is that their name be spelled correctly.

So, if all this is starting to scare you, I wonder from whence your fear really comes.

~ Elizabeth
Linda
Posts: 557
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:10 pm
Location: USA

Post by Linda »

I have the utmost respect for Leonard Cohen. Nothing you can say will change that Lizzytysh. Do I agree with everything he does, says, or ever did? Probably not, does it matter to him or anyone else, off course not, but I have the right to say it. But, obviousy not here.

I didn't always approve of everything my children or my husband ever did or said, but I have the utmost repect them.
Linda
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25503
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh »

I'm not suggesting you don't have the right to say what you think of Leonard's work in the context of discussion/commentary on it. I've certainly made no requests that any postings of others be deleted, an act that would certainly suggest my feelings regarding "the right." However, how does one demonstrate the respect that one claims? It seems merely lip service when nothing is held sacred from derision, and even a thank-you from the artist, the person himself, is addressed with contempt. The scenario you've described, with regard to the actions of family members, generally has to do with "love" rather than "respect." The responses brought to mind, both, lack of respect and, in your case in particular, the historical aspects. How does one know respect when they see it?
Last edited by lizzytysh on Sat Sep 27, 2003 11:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Linda
Posts: 557
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:10 pm
Location: USA

Post by Linda »

If for a minute I though Leonard was affected by what I have said in any way I would sincerely apologize to him, but I seriously doubt in any way he is.
Linda
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25503
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh »

Just for the record, my 1 Edit came prior to reading your following post. We, obviously, were both typing at the same time, and yours got posted before I completed my Edit.
Linda
Posts: 557
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 9:10 pm
Location: USA

Post by Linda »

It took walking away from the board for awhile, and the light came through the crack... I was wrong. My opinion did not change of how I felt about his response, however, my saying it was wrong and very disrespectful toward him. Also disrespectful to the forum.
I am sorry. This his website, his place, I was totally out of line here. Love the light.
Linda
User avatar
lizzytysh
Posts: 25503
Joined: Thu Jun 27, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Florida, U.S.A.

Post by lizzytysh »

Linda ~

As you know, I agree with you. However, that's not nearly as important [in my opinion] as your seeing it from that different perspective.

Truthfully, I am nearly as stunned by this posting, as I was by the initial one. However, this is a good stunned, and I think the crack, with the light getting in, is a good analogy. As you've suggested, there's a world of difference between thinking/saying it, and posting it here, in a case such as this. You are definitely entitled to your own opinion. Perhaps with time, you'll regard that differently, as well. Perhaps not. I [personally] appreciate your gracious reconsideration on the rest.

Thank you [very much] for posting it.

~ Lizzytysh
Mr. Ed
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu Jul 04, 2002 7:07 am
Location: the stable

Post by Mr. Ed »

Dear Lizzytysh,

I’m not going to post any more. This latest meltdown of yours is a little disturbing to me. I was going to do a little goof on the whole situation but the more vehement you became the less funny it all seemed. Before this latest battle royale (even when you were at your most dramatic) I could always find the humorous side of your slanging matches. I could only watch this one in disbelief.

I don’t think Suzanne’s post (which started all this) was "throwing garbage" at Leonard. Sometimes, people post things without thinking through the implications of their remarks. And I certainly don’t think Linda’s original remark should be regarded as contempt for Leonard Cohen. Neither post warranted the kind of response they received from you or Judith Fitzgerald. A mild rebuke and the whole thing would have died a natural death. If Leonard Cohen does know about this tempest in a teapot the fault lies more with you then it does with Suzanne or Linda.

As this is my last post, I have to confess that your criticisms of Linda could be applied to me. I also, as you put it, "disapprove of his use of profanity and sexual references." I recently read Beautiful Losers. It was very disheartening. A novel exhibiting real genius --- but to what end and for what purpose? It has the stench of death about it. Beautiful Losers is the kind of novel the Gadarene demoniac would have written before he was seated, clothed, and in his right mind. His poetry in Death of a Lady’s Man reveals a very strange and low (I would almost say degraded) opinion of women. (To be fair, he revealed a pretty awful portrait of himself too.) As for "all the women he’s had" – there is an Old Spanish proverb that goes something like this:

A man who loves one woman has loved them all
A man who loves many women has never loved one.

(Was it really necessary to mock Linda’s "one, long-term marriage"?)

As for his "recent drawings" I think I was a little snarky about his Tough Guy portrait. Does that put me beyond the pale?

I’m not fond of his voice in his earlier albums either. It doesn’t mean I can’t appreciate some of his work. (Come to think of it…I’m not fond of TNS.)

I am a "recent newcomer". I only "discovered" Leonard Cohen” two years ago. Does this disqualify me from forming a mature opinion of his work? Or life?

Lizzytysh, I know that Leonard Cohen means a great deal to you. You have made him a part of your daily life. I just wish that you did not love him quite so fiercely. You remind me of a she-bear with her cub. Not every negative comment about LC is an all-out attack on him. I think you need to step back a little and get a different perspective on things.


Sincerely,


Mr. Ed


:)
Last edited by Mr. Ed on Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tony
Posts: 522
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2002 11:39 am
Location: UK

Post by Tony »

Sorry to see you go, Mr Ed. Your comments comprised some of the brief flashes of humour in this forum which can sometimes become somewhat introspective.

Now you have left the darkness of the stable you can enjoy the open fields of sunshine.

Thanks for your contributions which always brought a smile to my face.

Giddeeup!
jurica
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:31 pm
Location: Croatia

Post by jurica »

now i realy don't get it.

why can't you, if lizzy irrates you so much, simply ignore everything she writes?

i can't find her guilty for running you away, because i feel you were ready to go anyway. why else would you be chased off so easily? if you don't want to read someone's comments - you don't have to.
Post Reply

Return to “Comments & Questions”