Leonard is bigger than money

News about Leonard Cohen and his work, press, radio & TV programs etc.
bee
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Postby bee » Sat Jul 23, 2005 9:05 am

I admire your strength and beliefs.
Just because something's 'been tried before' doesn't eliminate it from the spectrum of possibility.
Oh, that's a nice one! Strength in what sense-where Elizabeth do you see that strength? In angry back talk to any reason which has been expressed politely or with dose of sarcasm?
It looks more to me that Bossman is behaving like a child, who was sent to his room to do his homework, he goes there, standing at the door still saying angrily to himself- I hate you, I hate you! And that is all he can do. He has no clue what the meaning of reason is.
Idealism? you say-that is what you are admiring? What really idealism is, and what are those ideals Bosman is expressing?
Just because something's 'been tried before' doesn't eliminate it from the spectrum of possibility. -
Exactly right-and that is the one scary part why Kush and I and Linda and others are bothering to respond to this nightmarish propaganda stunt, which you call idealism. Experiments based on that sort of "idealism" have been tried with the most horrible results, with extermination and misery of millions in the past century.
I am certain, that all of us who would visit this Forum are decent people-of course with different views and experiences-they don't exploit other people for shameless monetary profit, they make their living by using their skills and talent, strength and wisdom etc. For many, including me, who have made many sacrifices to live accordingly inner believes and ideals, who gave their talent to hard work supporting their families and children, giving all the love there is possibly to give-it is shameful and offensive for you to tell that you "admire" his idealism.
He-the Bossman and you-if that is what you admire-why don't you go to the Las Vegas, to big casino owners and give them your message? Why don't you go to the streets to the prostitutes and pimps in Los Angeles, New York, Moscow, Hon-Kong, Tokyo etc.- why don't you go to the big bankers, the Swiss bank holders, why don't you go to Africa, to the gun buyers, to the gold and diamond miners, to prisons, to criminals and rapists, why don't you go to wall street - go there, give them the message and then you hear what they have to say.
No Bossman or you, Lizzytish can call me snivelling rat. I've seen these big mouth "idealistic" rats for who they really are. I've also seen that pretentious liberalism and pretentious compassion-it is all words, which costs nothing among many liberal American women, who are all so sweet honey, honey, honey in their talk, but when it comes to reality- they can be real bitches towards their husbands, children, colleges and neighbors. No pretentiousness can disguise that. I am 100% sure, if Bossman would move in with you in your house, without paying one month rent, you would kick his ass out off your house, no matter what idealistic blubber he would offer to you. In the end-it is not really Boss what is so bothersome in this particular situation but you- Lizzytish. Bossman possibly has some serious problems, let's put his soul into God's hands, but I don't believe that you would have that little education as not to understand very simple, basic sociopolitical-philosophical statements and their sources.
I know you've been playing this "compassionate liberal" role for a long while and it is your comfort zone, but why cant you be truthful for a change? I did not want it a personal attack on you, but the arrogance of your last statements, presenting yourself as the only person here who would understand idealism and strength, dedication to ideals-it is too much to take in this comedy, which turns to ugliness with your bravo's to "idealism." I take it as a spitting on the man and women who carried out their ideals with grace. Mother Theresa never blabbed about her intentions, she went and did what she saw as proper thing to do.
bee
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lizzytysh
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Postby lizzytysh » Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:41 pm

Hi Bee ~

I wouldn't engage you with your misdirected venom, even if I weren't about to leave post-haste to go buy my health-store variety dog food, and then on to the Greek restaurant for my first-since-leaving-Greece Mythos :D ~ and a case to bring home, to boot :D [that's a tough call for even me to believe, but it's true :shock: ~ just too difficult to get over there to buy it individually].

How it is you misinterpreted my response to Boss's conjecture as my supporting the idea of his being a freeloader, but hey ~ I have no control over your perceptions. Sorry my response to him creates such a high level of discomfort in you, but hey, again ~ you're you and I'm me, and I'm highly pleased with that bottom line.

I'll lift my Mythos to you.

Love [but not too much, of course; draw your own comfort line :wink: ],
Lizzy
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Dem
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Postby Dem » Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:37 pm

Boss,

It is interesting seeing you in one posting to
praise Dylan, Morrison, Cohen for “prophesizing
a world without money” and right in the next one
to “defend” them for not only making a lot of money
but also for investing them (i.e. trying to make even more!)

As about Bob Dylan it is his acts that I know.

And, like it or not, an ad for Victoria’s
Secret female underwear for example,
all it tells is absolutely the opposite of
your “wild teenage fantasies”)

Sorry.



Bee,

glad to see that for once we agree on something :twisted:
Dem
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Kush
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Postby Kush » Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:05 am

Well I never thought I'd agree with Dem about something but I s'pose stranger things can happen. That was the exact point I was gonna make....with a slightly different twist.
I see some inherent contradiction in what Bossman says...on the one hand he wants to eradicate money while on the other he calls a bunch of self-made millionaires his tribal elders and prophets. The twist is of course I have only admiration for these folks for having such successful careers and making millions from plying their trade with such integrity.

As Mr. Gandhi himself said (oft-quoted it seems these days):

"Lack of finances never represented a real difficulty to a sincere worker. Finances follow, they dog your foot-steps if you represent a real cause."
For sure Cohen and Dylan did what they wanted to do irrespective of whether finances came their way or not. And the the finances did come their way.

Some things bother me...like the "compassionate liberal" always looking for a third world soul to save. Check out the latest Fortune magazine cover....the featured article is "America: a 97 lb. weakling?" comparing the economic growth in China and US. The second featured article is "6 smart ways to invest in India". This is not 1969...its 2005.

Hold onto to your own dreams Bossman....and let those in China and America and everywhere else hold on to theirs.
Tchocolatl
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Postby Tchocolatl » Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:25 am

bee wrote:OK, Tchoco, thank you for the explanation about the whole cannibal business. (...)
This is how I see the picture, don't get me so confused next time, dear Tchoco!
So I guess that my game is of no interest (at all) and it is much more fun to cross the sword (let say boil and/or rost and/or cook in any possible ways whoever can be identified as a missionary, and - oh! what the hell, just anybody who passes by) with whatever falls under hand. So far so good as would have said someone I knew. Allow me to do the parrot. But for the sake of the rationality of this discussion (it must have a particle of rationality somwhere in this thread, according to the law of physic) I will do the parrot just one time and for the money and hippie matters I'll refer you to two posts of Elizabeth, which I would only repeat the content should I answer to those two matters. OK, you'll have to grease that - somehow rusty, I suspect - search engine, here, but ey! it worth the effort. I must leave the party, Bee dearest, 'hope you, and the rest of you keep enjoying it as cheerfully as it appears.

(If you do not understand, read again. Repeat as often as necessary.)
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tomsakic
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Postby tomsakic » Mon Jul 25, 2005 10:00 am

Dem wrote:As about Bob Dylan it is his acts that I know.

And, like it or not, an ad for Victoria’s
Secret female underwear for example,
all it tells is absolutely the opposite of
your “wild teenage fantasies”)
Well, I had enough last year when one person asked for permission for Leonard's lyrics to be quoted in the book. Of course (s)he got it via this site promptly from Leonard, and free. "I am always happy when someone uses my music" [lyrics] - L.C.

The thing is that person said - on forum or in mail to me, I don't remember, there was few such askings then - (s)he needed Bob's lyrics also - but Dylan Office requested some big sum of money to be paid for permission - to quote a line at the beginning of the book!

And that's not the only one example of Leonard's attitide (dozen of permission via this forum only last year), and not the unique example of Dylan's attitude. So, Victoaria's underwear isn't the high peak for me.


I any case, I wanna see some beautiful girl in that ad, not Bob Dylan!
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Boss
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Postby Boss » Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:57 pm

Cynicism is cancer.

Cynicism in G-d, in Nature, in Each Other is sacrilege.

I apologise for my occasional outbursts but money is never key. This I believe vehemently.

We're suffocating in our disease of greed every day. Chemotherapy won't 'do the trick'.

However, in the end, Love wins. Always...
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lightning
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Postby lightning » Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:11 pm

Kush wrote:
As Mr. Gandhi himself said (oft-quoted it seems these days):

"Lack of finances never represented a real difficulty to a sincere worker. Finances follow, they dog your foot-steps if you represent a real cause.

Kush and all:
What's real and what is not?
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Tri-me
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Postby Tri-me » Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:19 pm

Here is an article on a study of money and hapiness..
http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/de ... &tid=14403

We are so lucky we have choice.
Cheers & DLight
Tri-me (tree-mite) Sheldrön
"Doorhinge rhymes with orange" Leonard Cohen
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Boss
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Postby Boss » Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:51 am

And here is a short article by Alice Miller about Adolph Hitler and how he evolved into what he did. This silent 'epidemic' of fractured, torn childhoods haunts our world today. Consider our nuclear weapon insanity, our army against army, our terror on a train. Consider the scramble for money, the lack of true love for ourselves, the scarcity of happiness, the scarcity of inner peace. It can change. The site is http://www.naturalchild.com/alice_mille ... itler.html

In peace

Boss
Tchocolatl
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Postby Tchocolatl » Tue Jul 26, 2005 5:44 am

Much more interesting than money this article, the title could have been "Adolf Hitler: in the kingdom of one-eyed people, blinds are kings".

There.

We are coming back to Plato and his cave. To the problem of enlarging our consciousness in order to stop taking shadows for realities.

Very interesting article as it sheds light on a social mechanism in particular.

Fear. Powerful master, fear.

And the phenomenon of scapegoat an religious human sacrifice that came back also.

(hum... "cannibal", takes two "n" after all. I was thinking Mrgt was stressing me a grammatical error in the word in the other thread.)

Once I was wondering if there was a future, if people would be ruled by fear to death or by life. Now I know that life is pretty much at work, even uncounsciously (so it balances for the "bad" uncousciousness). When you begin to see this... I don't know if you can see this, Boss? Sometimes, people will not phrase rationally their behaviors, but you can observe it. It is more easy to see when it is not obscured by our own projections, though.
bee
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Postby bee » Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:46 am

The thing is that person said - on forum or in mail to me, I don't remember, there was few such askings then - (s)he needed Bob's lyrics also - but Dylan Office requested some big sum of money to be paid for permission - to quote a line at the beginning of the book!
Tom, When one thinks about it, the very first reaction could be just as you're having. But then again-there certainly is more to that. Intellectual property has to be protected as much as any other property-like real estate for example. Nobody would think calling up a huge real-estate telling them - Look, you have that and that room in the building siting free, can I use it for a while, would be real nice if you agree on that. Sure, I don't want to pay any rent of that. But I am going to make some money on that -- because I'm going to rent it out to somebody.?? That would sound crazy. Of course, I am not saying, that the person calling for permission to Dylan's office necessarily wanted to publish a book using Dylan's text and make a profit. But that could happen. It happened to me, when I did a logo for a huge art festival. I knew the profits are going to be used for certain cause, so I did not care for any honorar or pay- I did it for free. The logo turned out to be a huge success, my logo was used on all kinds of merchandise, publications, presentations etc. It made a profit of $60,000. I was given around $500, as a bonus, I was OK with that too, however I felt that I should've been smarter asking at least for 10% at the beginning, but it was too late, I did not want to start up on that> But- there is a big but, in a meantime, there were more "smarter people" who started to use my logo on merchandise they were selling for their own profit, using the arts festival as an opportunity. And I was not at all happy about that. Luckily, I have had sent to myself self-addressed envelope with my original and previous sketches, so thus I secured my rights on that work. As soon as I was told about the "smart people" I was able to threaten them with hell, lawyers, courts and judges, so it was stopped. but of course I don't know what they did later. It is just a small example, but there must be pretty tough rules, other wise one could be really screwed as I was.
bee
bee
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Postby bee » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:13 am

Bee,

glad to see that for once we agree on something
Dem
Sure, Dem-we are no enemies-just difference in opinions. You were born at the warm Adriatic sea-where I happened to be swimming in the cold waters of Baltic-makes a difference in the sensation of temperature-cool and even very cold works fine for me.
bee
bee
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Postby bee » Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:27 am

So I guess that my game is of no interest (at all) and it is much more fun to cross the sword (let say boil and/or rost and/or cook in any possible ways whoever can be identified as a missionary, and - oh! what the hell, just anybody who passes by) with whatever falls under hand. So far so good as would have said someone I knew.
Tchoco- is not true-your game is of great interest, just that I'm a bit slow in understanding in your mysterious works of writing-your secret codes etc. Besides, dear Tchoco- please don't read too much about Hitler-like somebody said-don't look too much down into the depth of hell -- can suck you in.
You take care and don't leave the party too early the vino still sparkling in the glass! :wink:
bee
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Boss
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Postby Boss » Tue Jul 26, 2005 1:58 pm

Poor bee. Can't you stand up and face a few demons in your hive? Can't look at the truth? Just cast it all aside to hell. What is in your closets? What injuries gnaw at your very soul, making life so intolerable, incomplete? This is where your (and everyone elses) BUCK stops. The very reason for this sickly financial unfairness we've inherited today. So much in our world occurs between adults as a direct result of childhood. It is a place where we can be loved, it is a place we can be accursed. These abandonments, bashings, abuses and manipulations create souls that have to deny to survive. Often it is years later the suffering comes out in various forms; most often destructive. Adolf Hitler is an extreme case. Adults who had loving, nurturing backgrounds are lucky. But they also carry a responsibility. I think few realise this. They are the people who should nurse those who went through hell in childhood. There is an onus on them; rather than go skiing at St Moritz or wherever.

What I'm attempting to say here is that there is hope for anyone on this planet. We understand enough of human functioning to help the victims of childhood suffering. To 'mourn', to really come to an emotional and intellectual position and 'mourn' that little person that was (and perhaps still is) you. Think of the innocence and wonder so often taken away. It wasn't your fault. To come back in touch with you as a child, to feel the rage, the injustice - simply how you suffered. This is the path to emotional well being. Read Alice Miller. So many secrets of childhood are kept by adults. Cut through this facade. See the untruths about many child rearing methods. And love yourself. To the highest mountain, to the deepest ocean, love yourself. You are worth it

Boss
Last edited by Boss on Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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