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Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:42 am
by LY24
pironi wrote:I have read the poem many many times and tried to translate it into Italian.
There is one thing I'd like to understand:
You say Uncle, then it's simple
What happens to the heart

This Uncle, is he a member of Leonard's family, or is this some kind of saying either in the English language or in North America??
Thanks
Pietro.
hi,Pietro!

when i translate this passages,I understood it as ‘Uncle Sam’.but now,you let me recall a poem in his first book of poetry ,I hope this is the correct way to an understanding.

Rites

Bearing gifts of flowers and sweet nuts
the family came to watch the eldest son,
my father;and stood about his bed
while he lay on a blood-sopped pillow,
his heart half rotted
and his throat dry with regret.
And it seemed so obvious,the smell so present,
quiet so necessary,
but my uncles prophesied wildly,【1】my uncles; here!
promising life like frantic oracles;
and they only stopped in the morning,
after he had died
and I had begun to shout。

带着鲜花和甜蜜坚果的礼物
一家人前来看望长子,
我的父亲;身长如他的床
当他躺在被血浸透的枕头上,
他的心脏有一半已腐烂
他的喉咙带着遗憾变得干燥。
这看来如此明显,那气味如此难忘,
平静得如此必然,
但我的叔叔们粗鲁的预言,
许诺生活会像疯狂的神谕;
他们只是在他已经死后,
顺道在清晨过来
而我已开始咆哮。


Well! I also have a question :

We fought for something final
Not the right to disagree

what is something final?

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:40 am
by daka
pironi wrote:I have read the poem many many times and tried to translate it into Italian.
There is one thing I'd like to understand:
You say Uncle, then it's simple
What happens to the heart

This Uncle, is he a member of Leonard's family, or is this some kind of saying either in the English language or in North America??
Thanks
Pietro.
Saying "Uncle" is an expression in English that means 'surrendering'... or giving up to someone who is forcefully defeating you....

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 10:42 am
by jarkko
Yes, that's exactly what Leonard means!

He explained this line in the following way:
In a childhood fight, let's say someone is twisting your arm, he'll let you know that he'll keep on twisting until you say Uncle -- it means total defeat, and immediate relief -- when I was growing up this was a well-known a ritual among childhood warriors

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 12:57 pm
by LY24
Thanks daka and jarkko!Help me to understand correctly. :D

say uncle(or cry uncler) :
To indicate a willingness to give up a fight or surrender:
for example:
Members of the gang held him down until at last he cried uncle.


I remember the use of the Chinese to said give up:“我服了”(wo fu le).
When you were riding on the body and can't win in a fight, You can say for mercy.

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:18 pm
by pironi
Thanks! I Googled it and found this:
Where did the phrase "Say Uncle" come from?

Jonathon Green, Slang lexicographer.
Author: Green's Dictionary of Slang (2010)
Written 27 Dec 2011

The first recorded example of say uncle, also found as cry uncle, and
meaning to beg someone to stop an action, or, intransitively, to
surrender, is this:

1916 Literary Digest vol. 52: It [i.e. a movie] was to end with a
smashing knockdown, after which the victorious leading man was to sit
upon his prostrate foe and, in the vernacular, make him say Uncle."

According to American Speech vol 51, 1976: '“Uncle” in this expression
is surely a folk etymology, and the Irish original of the word is
anacol (anacal, anacul) “act of protecting; deliverance; mercy,
quarter, safety”, a verbal noun from the Old Irish verb aingid
“protects”.’

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 1:23 pm
by daka
pironi wrote:Thanks! I Googled it and found this:
Where did the phrase "Say Uncle" come from?

Jonathon Green, Slang lexicographer.
Author: Green's Dictionary of Slang (2010)
Written 27 Dec 2011

The first recorded example of say uncle, also found as cry uncle, and
meaning to beg someone to stop an action, or, intransitively, to
surrender, is this:

1916 Literary Digest vol. 52: It [i.e. a movie] was to end with a
smashing knockdown, after which the victorious leading man was to sit
upon his prostrate foe and, in the vernacular, make him say Uncle."

According to American Speech vol 51, 1976: '“Uncle” in this expression
is surely a folk etymology, and the Irish original of the word is
anacol (anacal, anacul) “act of protecting; deliverance; mercy,
quarter, safety”, a verbal noun from the Old Irish verb aingid
“protects”.’
Fascinating! Thanks for adding this clarification, I don't think there's much more to say :)

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 7:55 pm
by dreamermusic
Just a 'curious' thing that has come to my mind when reading the poem: try singing "Happens to the Heart" with the music of the song "Death of a Ladies' Man". It works!

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:25 pm
by Hartmut
dreamermusic wrote:Try singing "Happens to the Heart" with the music of the song "Death of a Ladies' Man". It works!
:-)

Nice. - That makes the wait for the album a bit more bearable.

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:32 am
by Judith511
Beautiful . :D

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:19 am
by jarkko
I would like to say that this poem was very important for Leonard. It was to be a song on his next album. He had worked on the melody with Patrick Leonard but felt that it was not nailed yet. He asked me to post it here on the Forum.

In August he wrote me "I hope it will make it to the next record as a song but I wanted you and our community to see it in case that next record never happens."

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:52 am
by icecreamtruck
Jarkko --

It is very special to me that you mention this. I have thought about this poem a few times since the sad news. My father introduced me to Leonard Cohen's work when I was younger. Cohen Live was traveling music in the car of my youth. I thought it was magic.

By Dear Heather I was old enough to buy an album on release day myself. I loved it. From the first notes of the bass and drums of Go No More A-Roving to the applause of Tennessee Waltz.

I was always eager to engage my dad in a discussion of Leonard's work. But for some reason he seemed to rather shut discussion down when I brought it up -- as if I wasn't bright enough to interest him in discussing the work. Or maybe Leonard belonged to him.

I listened to Dear Heather constantly. I loved its lightness and gravitas. I enjoyed the humour, the playfulness and what felt like eternal perspective of The Faith. I loved the way his voice settled in the quarter tones beneath when he sang "and death is old." I loved the two vocal approaches of the "The Letters" and I was fascinated by the return of his tenor range on "Nightengale". The girl who I married, whose shoulder took my tears when I learned of Leonard's death, danced me to minor keys and drum machines of that beautiful record. I loved to amuse my friends with the absurdity of "Because Of."

My dad said "Dear Heather" wasn't worth the plastic it was printed on.

Sometime after you posted this poem, my old man brought it up. He didn't read it here. It was published elsewhere after it came out here I think. He said "did you see the new lyric from Leonard Cohen? Must be coming out on his next album."

I said "I don't think so, Dad. I think he posted it for his people on his forum. Y'know, just to share it with them."

"Wow. Have you read it?"

"No." I lied. "Could we?"

"Sure."

And my Dad and I finally talked about this man's work and it's brilliance. We lingered over lines like "funding my depression" and "a mist of summer kisses/where I tried to double park." I read the poem to him as if I was discovering it. I may as well have been reading it for the first time as we shared these lines and as it Happened to our Hearts.

We spoke about how meaningful and incredible it was that at 82, this old hero of ours was actively heroic...in the time we still shared as adults, my father and I.

My dad is ill with leukemia. I pray that his illness makes no sudden moves and that we can induldge the continued innovation of the leukemia researchers and doctors for many years to come. But we remain on borrowed and swiftly passing time.

Happens to the Heart gave my old man and I this precious slip of common ground where we stood briefly and sufficiently, heart to heart over the beauty of the Word.

So thank you for this note, Jarkko. It feels good to know that this was a special piece of work for Leonard and that he wanted to make sure he shared it with us. I'm so glad that he did. I'm so glad he had this place to share it to. Thank you for making this place.

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 3:40 pm
by Sonia Surmont
Jarkko, Many thanks for sharing this beautiful poem with us.

Sonia Surmont

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 8:05 pm
by phillip
Thankyou for this wonderful poem :)

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:10 am
by mutti
Thank you so much Jarkko for sharing this poem.
It is so kind of Leonard for wanting us to see it...now...
Leslie PY 8)

Re: FROM LEONARD: HAPPENS TO THE HEART

Posted: Sat Nov 19, 2016 7:27 am
by abby
icecreamtruck wrote:Jarkko --

It is very special to me that you mention this. I have thought about this poem a few times since the sad news. My father introduced me to Leonard Cohen's work when I was younger. Cohen Live was traveling music in the car of my youth. I thought it was magic.

By Dear Heather I was old enough to buy an album on release day myself. I loved it. From the first notes of the bass and drums of Go No More A-Roving to the applause of Tennessee Waltz.

I was always eager to engage my dad in a discussion of Leonard's work. But for some reason he seemed to rather shut discussion down when I brought it up -- as if I wasn't bright enough to interest him in discussing the work. Or maybe Leonard belonged to him.

I listened to Dear Heather constantly. I loved its lightness and gravitas. I enjoyed the humour, the playfulness and what felt like eternal perspective of The Faith. I loved the way his voice settled in the quarter tones beneath when he sang "and death is old." I loved the two vocal approaches of the "The Letters" and I was fascinated by the return of his tenor range on "Nightengale". The girl who I married, whose shoulder took my tears when I learned of Leonard's death, danced me to minor keys and drum machines of that beautiful record. I loved to amuse my friends with the absurdity of "Because Of."

My dad said "Dear Heather" wasn't worth the plastic it was printed on.

Sometime after you posted this poem, my old man brought it up. He didn't read it here. It was published elsewhere after it came out here I think. He said "did you see the new lyric from Leonard Cohen? Must be coming out on his next album."

I said "I don't think so, Dad. I think he posted it for his people on his forum. Y'know, just to share it with them."

"Wow. Have you read it?"

"No." I lied. "Could we?"

"Sure."

And my Dad and I finally talked about this man's work and it's brilliance. We lingered over lines like "funding my depression" and "a mist of summer kisses/where I tried to double park." I read the poem to him as if I was discovering it. I may as well have been reading it for the first time as we shared these lines and as it Happened to our Hearts.

We spoke about how meaningful and incredible it was that at 82, this old hero of ours was actively heroic...in the time we still shared as adults, my father and I.

My dad is ill with leukemia. I pray that his illness makes no sudden moves and that we can induldge the continued innovation of the leukemia researchers and doctors for many years to come. But we remain on borrowed and swiftly passing time.

Happens to the Heart gave my old man and I this precious slip of common ground where we stood briefly and sufficiently, heart to heart over the beauty of the Word.

So thank you for this note, Jarkko. It feels good to know that this was a special piece of work for Leonard and that he wanted to make sure he shared it with us. I'm so glad that he did. I'm so glad he had this place to share it to. Thank you for making this place.
Thank you so much for sharing this.

So much of what gets shared I just can't find my way into. Your story made me feel less alone.