Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

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Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby mat james on Mon May 07, 2012 4:54 am

Carl Jung is the writer who made some sense of a mystery world, to me.
I read him in my early 20's after stumbling on a book of his, "Memories, Dreams and Reflections", in a fruit and vegi market place.
I think I was slightly mad, confused and slightly bi-polar or manic depressive or whatever, but not "normal", thankfully, and a budding Poet to boot.
So Jung was the man for my moment.
Well, so what, you may say...
I was shown this wonderful site (by my daughter) that has documentaries on everything; and once again I stumbled on Jung.
This is a great vid, old interviews of him and the women he loved.

On reflection, understanding Leonard Cohen's artistic work, for me, were always adventures via Jung's map of the mind.
I love Cohen
But I love Jung even more as he gave me a key to "The Window" and "The open door" of myself and I feel to Leonard's songs as well. The door and the window that Cohen sings about.
If you warm to the mystery of leonard, you may warm to the life and work of Jung.
Leonard has his writing and music, Jung has his Psychology and his Bollingen.

"Matter of Heart."
( http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/matter-of-heart/ )

...for what it is worth,
He helped me immensely in my quest for happiness.
His books, Memories dreams and reflections, Answer to Job and The Individuation Process, are never far from my arm or my mind.

MatbbgJ....and I am a jungian belly-button-gazer at that! ;)
Last edited by mat james on Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart."
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby anneporter on Mon May 07, 2012 7:58 am

Thanks for the link Mat.
mat james wrote:On reflection, understanding Leonard Cohen's artistic work, for me, were always adventures via Jung's map of the mind.
I love Cohen
But I love Jung even more as he gave me a key to "The Window" and "The open door" of myself and I feel to Leonard's songs as well. The door and the window that Cohen sings about.




I am with you on this--except that I love Leonard more...On a desert island I could live without Jung, but never without Cohen.
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby imaginary friend on Tue May 08, 2012 11:28 pm

Ha-ha Anne! I totally agree – Leonard is #1.

I attended art school for a year, when I first came to Vancouver (i.e. until economic reality hit), and one, month-long workshop exercise was to do something for the month that we had never done before, and record it. There were some wonderful ideas – one woman created an imaginary friend (!) in a suitcase filled with old photos, clothing, feathers and found objects; one person slept in a different place every night... I chose to explore my dreams. I set the alarm to go off several times each night, and when it woke me, I scribbled down the dream I had been having in a notebook kept beside the bed. Later I read what I had written, transcribed it into a sketchbook and added sketches and details. I became obsessed (and mildly anti-social). Couldn't wait for bedtime and dreamtime. Some dreams were quite exquisite, some were recurrent... I wanted to find out more about this rich dream-world that I had discovered. That was when I read Memories, Dreams and Reflections and Man and his Symbols. The Dream-month experiment proved to an intensely personal and deeply satisfying experience, and I kept it up for months afterwards. I still do it, from time to time...
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby mat james on Wed May 09, 2012 3:55 am

I loooove your story imaginary friend.
and Anne;
As for me being cast on a desert Island…?

It is an interesting thought/dilemma.
What a combo they would make though
…and an alluring woman in the mix that we could all get jealous over!!
Now that sounds like heaven and hell to me.

(..so I have Cohen and Jung to compete against? That sounds fair. There is always room for the new kid on the block.)

This island of yours, Anne, sounds like a dangerous place to me ;) The sort of danger I live for.

Maybe, imagfriend, you have answered the question of "who else to take?"
Someone who loves the song of Leonard, the vista of Jung, the allure and mystery of self; and most importantly for me, is female.

????
I like a challenge
And
As those challenges I choose
Are always nigh impossible;
this one’s made for me.

Whose coming with us (me, Leo and yunghy)?
8)
(I'll have to ask my wife's permission, of course!
...usually she is glad to get rid of me for awhile.)

MatbbgJ
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart."
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby B4real on Wed May 09, 2012 7:29 am

Hi Mat,

I thought you might find this info interesting. You will be aware of Doran's work on "The Window" but maybe not the other three excerpts.

An aside relating to the first question of the interview directly below which you will know but I don't think the interviewer knew how far back the image actually went:
The original cover art for Death of a Lady's Man and New Skin for the Old Ceremony was an image from the alchemical text Rosarium philosophorum which was first printed at Frankfurt in 1550.
The image originally came to public attention in C.G.Jung's essay, The Psychology of The Transference (2nd ed.1966) where it is held by Jung to depict the union of psychic opposites in the consciousness of the enlightened saint. The sexual embrace as a symbol for this condition of psychic unity is also found frequently in Tibetan thangkas (sacred paintings).


Working for the World to Come:

Interviewers: There's a woodcut on the cover of Death of a Lady's Man and also on the sleeve of the album New Skin for the Old Ceremony which is taken from a book by Jung. Has Jung been an influence on you?

Cohen: I don't know Jung's work that well, but I've kept his books as references throughout the years. I know the general Jungian principles. I more or less came to Jung through oriental studies. He'd written some prefaces to the I Ching and also The Secret of the Golden Flower. As a western scientist, his appreciation of the Oriental psychology and Oriental psychical anatomy -- mysticism, whatever that means -- dissolved the western view that their psychology was mystical. He saw systematically a diagram of the psyche. It was valid. That kind of view developed in the West in the Forties where we had a radical change in our perception of their work. I think Jung probably led in that re-evaluation of Oriental methodology. It's the science of the orient. It's not mysticism. The word mysticism is used in a somewhat pejorative sense. The point Jung makes in all his prefaces is that these things are pragmatic, that they refer to the mechanics of the psyche and can be properly studied. He de-mystified the work that the Orientals had done.

Interviewers: Were you trying to use Jungian psychology and techniques in Death of a Lady's Man?

Cohen: I don't really remember what the premise of the book was because, as I said, I don't write from a position of luxury. I write from a position of scraping the bottom of the barrel. I don't really know what that book was about. As I say in one of the paragraphs "my work is alive." Wherever you can go to find those mechanics that produce a living thing; that is where I have to go, because I'm not at a banquet table where I can pick and choose from all the delicacies. You go to the place that gives you those elements that can produce something that is alive.
-------------------

Donald Graystone from the Simon Fraser University:

“Leonard carries what Jung calls the ‘trickster archetype,’ believing that great things can be accomplished through a spirit of mischief.”
-------------------

Spiritual Unified Heart essay by peloquin:

The symbol of The Unified Heart that Cohen devised first appears with Book of Mercy, 1984: The Star of David transformed into two entwined, interlocking hearts. The Unified Heart refers directly to Cohen’s personal and universal resolution of the existential twist. Carl Jung speaks of this eloquently as “the reconciliation of the tension of opposites.”
-------------------

DB Cohen from his thoughts on The Window:

However, in Taoism the soul is not divided into two (except after death), unless we consider the dualistic aspect itself as part of each human soul, a concept reminiscent of the psychological ideas of C. G. Jung.
It is hard to tell to what extent Cohen is familiar with the work of Jung, but it would certainly appeal to him more than that of Freud. In his younger years Cohen used to refer to the I Ching, or The Book of Changes, the classical Chinese text which was often used for divination, and he may have known it in the translation which included Jung’s introduction.
Jung’s conviction – and Cohen’s is very much similar – was that life must have a spiritual purpose, beyond the basic material goals. Jung looked into many religious traditions, absorbing their symbols and using them in his work (again, Cohen has done the same thing all his life). Jung coined the term “individuation”, which, according to him, is the process by which, when successful, the self is transformed, through the harmonious balance of the conscious with the unconscious, fulfilling the individual’s potential. Jung also spoke of a dichotomy: the “self”, or the totality of the whole psyche, as distinguished from the “ego”, which constitutes only a small part of the psyche. Another famous idea of Jung’s is the existence of the “animus” (male) and the “anima” (female) forms; the individuation process includes the coming to terms of the man with the anima in him, and of the woman with the animus in her.
Jung also ascribed special importance to the Sanskrit term mandala, which brings us back to the rose, one of its manifestations. The circle is a symbol of the self, expressing the totality of the psyche in all its aspects, and it is represented in various pictographic variations, including the rose, as well as the rosette windows (in Eastern cultures it is the lotus).

btw.....I did actually live on a small island for two years in the late 60's.
There were no cars or dogs, only cats and donkeys (or maybe they were camels) it seems so long ago..... :)
Be for real. Free yourself to find the real Self ~~ Me
Happiness is like learning the violin, the more you practice it the more it comes to you ~~ Me
Without the heart, there can be no understanding between the hand and the mind ~~ Gore Vidal
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby mat james on Thu May 10, 2012 3:26 pm

Thanks B4.
That adds a bit of clarity to my intuitions about those 2 guys, Leo and Yungie.
So you are throwing your hat in the ring to (once again) be that "island girl", mesmerising us all? ;-)

About the books mentioned above by Leonard and you; it is funny how we stumble on the same books, as though they are invisibly linked.
The rule seems to be, "read one and you will find the others, no matter how obscure."
'The secret of the golden flower'...how I treasured that book! and Jung's commentaries/intro
...and "The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation".. HA! There is another treasure. I couldn't make head nor tail of it; so I read it several times. In the end I said to my unconscious, "You work it out and give me a dream of its meaning".
Low and behold, about 6 months later I had the dream; awoke, and immediately new that it was the meaning of that obscure book. I wrote my dream down, as I still do when I decide the dream is a "big" one. It all made perfect sense.
I still remember the dream and that dream reminds me of my "unconscious" take on it. All pictures and imagery.
Wonderful feeling.

Mat.
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart."
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby B4real on Fri May 11, 2012 11:44 am

That dream recall is quite fascinating Mat! The unconscious mind is always watching....and waiting.......

mat james wrote:MatbbgJ....and I am a jungian belly-button-gazer at that!

Here's something else to contemplate besides your navel, he he! Maybe you or anyone else interested might like to know what sort of “Jungie” you really are!
It is a revealing and interesting thing to find out. I am an INFJ ;-)

Click on direct link to Jung Typology Test:
http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp

Forum results and discussion on the Jung Typology Test:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=23291
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=23291&start=15#p259902

Now about that island escape ..... I can tell you that you will go slightly ‘troppo’ if you stay for some years. But you don’t realize it until you come back to the mainland and ‘civilization’. I remember I couldn't handle the noise of the traffic and all those strange people rushing around in the city. It was an idyllic lifestyle and I would do it again in an instant!
Be for real. Free yourself to find the real Self ~~ Me
Happiness is like learning the violin, the more you practice it the more it comes to you ~~ Me
Without the heart, there can be no understanding between the hand and the mind ~~ Gore Vidal
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby Diane on Fri May 11, 2012 1:42 pm

Nice thread, Mat. It's sychronicity that I read it this morning as work is driving me mad and I was wishing I lived on an island!

How Marvellous that you lived on an island, Bev:-) My cousin and I used to kayak out to islands, in the English Lake District where she lived, just for the satisfaction of being on an island, even (especially) as adults.
One of the lines I always sing along to from Billy Joel is "there ain't no island left for islanders like me," from
The Downeaster Alexa http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVlDSzbrH5M (which is about the loss of fishing as a livelihood for the traditional Bonackers of New York), because, well, it's just such a satisfying line:-)!

On the Myers-Briggs I come out most often as INFP, sometimes ENFP. Maybe more INFs are around in the LC population. Could be that's why we came here, because nobody else understands us...!
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby Tchocolatl on Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:05 pm

Gazer,

"Know thyself, :D


and you will know the universe and the gods." - Socrates (or so they say it was him)

Is this means that the microcosm and the macrocosm are similar but for the size? 8) (forget it.)

I used to be completely fascinated by Jund and Cohen at a certain time, particularly by the archetype of the Tricskter impersonated so very perfectly by Cohen, in my eyes. Synchronicities in my life are still powerfully connected to the work of Cohen. :)
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby mat james on Wed Jan 09, 2013 2:18 pm

B4real wrote:
“Jung also ascribed special importance to the Sanskrit term mandala, which brings us back to the rose, one of its manifestations. The circle is a symbol of the self, expressing the totality of the psyche in all its aspects, and it is represented in various pictographic variations, including the rose, as well as the rosette windows (in Eastern cultures it is the lotus).”

I am guessing that Jung had nothing to do with the construction/creation of the poem below, written by Brian Patterson.
I posted this poem (on it's own thread) on this section of the Forum late 2012.
“Synchronicity” Tchoc ?

I am not sure if these postings are truly synchronistic or not, but they certainly work well together. I interpreted Patterson’s “rose” in this poem as a Buddhist might interpret the lotus.


The bee’s last journey to the rose

I came first through the warm grass
Humming with Spring,
And now swim through the evening’s
Soft sunlight gone cold.
I am old in this green ocean
Going a final time to the rose.

North wind, until I reach it
Keep your icy breath away
That changes pollen into dust.
Let me be drunk on this scent a final time,
Then blow if you must.

Ahhh; what a beautiful state of mind to wander off into death with.

“Let me be drunk on this scent a final time,”


"Gazer"
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart."
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby Tchocolatl on Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:08 am

Bellybuttonstaringman, that's beautiful, but, there is no synchronicity for me there. For you maybe?

It came to my mind that people in this thread shall like the film Inception. I saw it a few days ago, I found it too violent for nothing, and too trash for my taste, but interesting as an artwork.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby Diane on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:41 pm

Dear Tchoc and Mat, you have put me in mind of this poem by Victor Hugo:


La Tombe Dit À La Rose

La tombe dit à la rose :
- Des pleurs dont l'aube t'arrose
Que fais-tu, fleur des amours ?
La rose dit à la tombe :
- Que fais-tu de ce qui tombe
Dans ton gouffre ouvert toujours ?

La rose dit : - Tombeau sombre,
De ces pleurs je fais dans l'ombre
Un parfum d'ambre et de miel.
La tombe dit : - Fleur plaintive,
De chaque âme qui m'arrive
Je fais un ange du ciel !



Like life itself, I struggle with what it means, but I love the tune;-)!


Synchronicity has it that I was listening to Old Ideas this morning, to discover that LC wrote it for me alone. All of it:-)
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby Tchocolatl on Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:28 am

At first it looks like you deserve the medal of the Navel of the navels of the Leonard Cohen Fan Club of this thread (or something) then I remember that everyone around here feels like he is speaking to them sweetly from a window in the Tower of Song.

If you really have to struggle with a poem, dear, I suggest this one :

(...)
Toi qui fis à l'amour des promesse tout bas
Et qui vis s'engager pour ta gloire un poète
O rose toujours fraîche ô rose toujours prête
Je t'offre le parfum horrible des combats

Toi qui sans défleurir sans mourir succombas
O rose toujours fraîche au vent qui la maltraite
Fleuris tous les espoirs d'une armée qui halète
Embaume tes amants masqués sur leurs grabats

Il pleut si doucement pendant la nuit si tendre
Tandis que monte en nous cet effluve fatal
Musicien masqué que nul ne peut entendre

Je joue un air d'amour aux cordes de cristal
De cette douce pluie où s'apaise mon mal
Et que les cieux sur nous font doucement descendre


Guillaume Apollinaire




For me struggling is a scent from the past.
(As you know too much :-)
"(...) my friends are gone and my hair is grey
I ache in the places where I used to play (...)" ;-)

Now I bid you farewell, I don't know when I'll be back
They're moving HIM tomorrow to that 2013 TOUR down the track
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby Diane on Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:22 pm

Image

I don't know about my navel but I wouldn't mind spinning from the cross.


Tchocolatl wrote:If you really have to struggle with a poem, dear, I suggest this one :
(...)
Toi qui fis à l'amour des promesse tout bas
Et qui vis s'engager pour ta gloire un poète
O rose toujours fraîche ô rose toujours prête
Je t'offre le parfum horrible des combats

Toi qui sans défleurir sans mourir succombas
O rose toujours fraîche au vent qui la maltraite
Fleuris tous les espoirs d'une armée qui halète
Embaume tes amants masqués sur leurs grabats

Il pleut si doucement pendant la nuit si tendre
Tandis que monte en nous cet effluve fatal
Musicien masqué que nul ne peut entendre

Je joue un air d'amour aux cordes de cristal
De cette douce pluie où s'apaise mon mal
Et que les cieux sur nous font doucement descendre


Guillaume Apollinaire






I cannot find an English translation (by a person), but I like what I can decipher. The struggle continues.

With a bit of luck, we'll be hearing from you baby, long after your purple reign.
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Re: Carl Jung, Matters of the Heart

Postby Tchocolatl on Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:52 pm

Spin, Baby, spin. :lol:

Straithening my hat :

Purple, yes, maybe, but reign? Huh ? That doesn't look like me at all. 8) That tells more about you, Noble Character in the Core.

Rain, would fit better to me than reign, in my eyes, my Purple Rain. Yes. Once upon a time. Witch is over. Please don't send flowers, but feel free to light a candle. In the present time, my colour is grey with silver flashes under the light. That brings new perspectives to the old ones.

And, :D may I suggest this as the symbol of the Order of the Navel of the navels, instead of your map of blood and flesh with the viet-nam-like-city-names on it?

Image

And, a thing leading to another :

Image
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
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