"come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

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Geoffrey
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"come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:59 am

page from journal
death of a ladies' man.jpg
Vicomte
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Vicomte » Thu Dec 22, 2016 5:46 pm

In time like many that have died under unknown, or rather untold circumstances fully explained, we will no doubt in the future read rumours and stories from the journalists looking to sell their words to the hordes of Cohen fans.
Geoffrey you have written many valid questions, some of which I suspect many would like the answers to. I found the reports of his demise rather bizarre and would suspect I am not alone in wondering about the circumstances of what happened. I don't find it gruesome, or even uncaring to reason what & why........
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2017 and fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:25 am

Vicomte wrote:In time like many that have died under unknown, or rather untold circumstances fully explained, we will no doubt in the future read rumours and stories from the journalists looking to sell their words to the hordes of Cohen fans.
Geoffrey you have written many valid questions, some of which I suspect many would like the answers to. I found the reports of his demise rather bizarre and would suspect I am not alone in wondering about the circumstances of what happened. I don't find it gruesome, or even uncaring to reason what & why........
dear vicomte.

thank you so much for your response; truly appreciated. after my questions appeared on social media a short while ago, i understood there existed a need for information by more people than just myself. i have today, therefore, written to leonard's management asking for a comment.

will keep you informed of what transpires. in the meantime, wishing you and everyone a merry christmas :-)

-geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Vicomte » Sat Dec 24, 2016 2:35 am

Thank you Geoffrey, that would be very appreciated by those of us somewhat mystified by his passing, or rather the moment it all came to pass. I read on here all about the grieving and the deep sadness and "how will I carry on etc" but to me, since the first time in 1967 I heard sisters of Mercy I was on the hook, so to speak and now, well both my wife and I just have gratitude for having spoken with him on more than one occasion and having seen him so many times. What is there to be sad about? Yes his passing was very much a shock but soon you come to realise just how lucky you have been and you smile and that is about it. We will always remember the music, the words in books and songs he left us, what's not to be happy about and indeed how lucky were you to have him as a friend.

Geoffrey, thanks for the wishes of a Merry Xmas and of course I also wish you and everyone the very same and a Happy Healthy New Year
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2017 and fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
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AlanM
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby AlanM » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:06 am

Like many I found the cause and effect a bit mystifying, so I did an internet search on "fatal falls in elderly".
As you might expect many articles were found, including this one: https://www.agingcare.com/articles/fall ... 149687.htm
In it the writer tells us:
For people 65 years old and older falls are the number one cause of death from an injury, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). In 2013 alone, more than 25,500 seniors died from injuries sustained in a fall.
And, while the death rates of ailments such as cancer and heart disease have declined over time, death rates from falls have increased, particularly among the elderly—with 55% of fall deaths in 2013 happening to people who were at least 65 years old.

and
The most common form of fall among the elderly population is a ground-level fall (where a person is standing on the ground before the fall). While this may not seem very dangerous when compared to a fall from a second-story window, consider this: a study conducted by researchers from the University of Mississippi, found that seniors older than 70 years experienced a three-fold increase in their risk of death after a ground-level fall when compared with those 69 years and younger.
What's behind this increased risk of death?
Depending on how a senior lands when they fall, they could experience everything from a broken hip to a traumatic brain injury.
According to the CDC, trauma to the brain was the cause of death in 41% of fall fatalities among seniors in the year 2010.


While none of this may have applied to Leonard, it explains what can happen from an apparently minor occurrence. His family may not be comfortable with releasing any further details, and really it is none of our business.

I intend to continue to celebrate his life and work and to take joy from the words and music he shared with us.

Alan
Too much Leonard Cohen is never enough.
London 1972, Adelaide 1980, 1985, 2009
Sydney 2010; Adelaide 2010
Sydney 2013 X2; Melbourne 2013; Adelaide 2013
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:34 am

thank you for commenting, alan m. and vicomte. i am so thankful to you both for letting me know there are people around who dare to involve themselves in this thread. if it is all right with you, though, i would prefer to wait and see if leonard's management responds to my letter before adding anything more. when someone doesn't answer, they usually say something very clearly - so let's wait a little while and see what happens :-)
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Vicomte » Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:25 pm

I agree with Geoffrey.

Alan, yes what you found is of course factual but what I think both myself and Geoffrey would like to know is the circumstances behind the fall and what was done after the fall and by who. Who wants to find out a much later date
the truth behind it all. That would only leave time and space for the conspiracy journos to offer us their stories which although probably rubbish could easily become fact to many, then try and flatten the "myths" with the truth and "it ain't gonna happen" then times that by several journos versions and you will end up never ever knowing the full honest story.
I guess it all started for me sometime around Christmas 1967 and now, goodness me, it's.........2017 and fifty years later.
No one ever listens to me. I might as well be a Leonard Cohen record.
Neil from The Young Ones
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Violet
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:33 pm

Hi Geoffrey.

I've had similar questions, and thought to post this now since it might lend itself to the cause of having your request answered.

As to its being a personal or private matter, as some here have claimed, this is a public figure, as well as someone we all cared about here, and so an accurate account of how he died is a reasonable expectation for us and the general public to have.


First I thought to take note of at least a few of the various accounts, starting with the Dutch pianist, Iris Hond, who knew Leonard and Patrick Leonard and who I believe was the first to mention leukemia as well as a fall, although her account includes a coma that lasted a month (this account mentioned on this forum by HugoD re: Dutch t.v). Strange that here is a legitimate source in that she was in contact with people close to Leonard, and yet nowhere else is a coma mentioned. And yet how could one get such a major detail entirely wrong?

Odd.

Then there was the Israeli woman Rachel Terry’s account in which she claimed Robert Kory had called her, telling her that Leonard fell in his home studio in Montreal while recording a new record. Kory is quoted as saying that Leonard had hit his head then went to lie down and rest and never woke up. This as per Israeli paper, "Yedioth Aharonot."

As for the final statement offered by Kory, if Leonard fell in the middle of the night then died peacefully in his sleep, how was it even known that he fell? This goes to some of your questions, Geoffrey. Is it being implied here that he was found dead where he fell? If so, that somehow doesn’t suggest a peaceful end.

Also, why wasn't leukemia mentioned at least as a contributing factor, since this was the last, most official account of his death? And as Geoffrey's questions indicate, where are all the kinds of details that go to answering how an individual has died, including the exact cause of death?

Also, why wasn’t the location mentioned?

All of the above has us considering the possible reasons for those involved to not be forthcoming with the details of Leonard’s death. Death, after all, is often unseemly. It can be ruthless and undignified. There could be guilt involved, since even those that loved him might have neglected to act in a timely manner, not realizing the danger at hand.

But even stating these possibilities for not wanting to disclose the precise circumstances of his death, there remains the question of whether to not do so is more harmful than letting the truth be as it is, as sad and ruthless a thing as is likely the case. It would be known, after all; and not shoved under the rug as if it was of no importance. It is important. It's part of the pain and acknowledgment that allows us to say good-bye.


Well, I've got a Christmas dinner to prepare, up here on this snow-covered mountain on a very sunny Christmas Day. Hope all here are well this holiday.

Violet
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Cindee
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Cindee » Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:52 am

I read he fell then died in his sleep peacefully. And the cancer thing but it didn't say what kind of cancer, they said his old love Marianne had died in July of Leukemia, I didn't hear Leukemia for Leonard. Regardless it was sad news because I did watch a longish interview with Leonard in it with Jian Gomeshi with Leonard in Montreal when Leonard was 67 years old. And he made the statement that he wasn't worried about death, just the preliminaries, as his longtime friend Irving Layton had once said to him. I think the interview is still one youtube. When I thought of Leonard having to sit in some kind of chair because his vertebrae were hurt from one of his last interviews. I thought this man gave so much to so many, I wished he had just passed away quietly in his sleep. Not full or pain or something. But he is gone and many people don't have the best deaths, but he had a pretty great life. I doubt anyone is going to go into graphic details about his death. They said he passed in L.A. and was taken to Montreal to lie where his parents and grandparents are. He did a beautiful job in offering those who listened to his music and enjoyed it. Does his death really matter now, I mean how he died, if he is gone. I'm sure he wasn't alone at the house he may have fallen out of bed and got put back in and died only because he was going to die that night anyway. Sorry if this sounds depressing. I choose to love him and value his life's work. He is not in the physical but we have music. Have a wonderful Christmas or whatever and a healthy, happy New Year. We all lose loved ones and have questions as to why. At least many of us do. Leonard was amazing and he has left but won't be forgotten.
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Violet » Mon Dec 26, 2016 4:30 am

This is not specifically a response to you, Cindee, but as regards this topic overall.

I suggest that what is right is not about one's personal preferences or needs. A factual representation of Leonard Cohen's death is just that. It defies what one wants or needs.

If the public is not allowed such factual representation, it begs the question why not?

And, as history has shown again and again, such questions don't merely evaporate with time. Instead (to echo what Vicomte has already stated) they fester and become attached to both plausible and implausible narratives, and on and on.

Geoffrey has proposed to foreclose on all that in the interest of getting some answers now; and the timeliness of this is especially relevant given the close proximity to the event itself.
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:14 am

thank you vicomte, cindee and violet for added comments. all of them are read with great interest, and in time i hope to address many of the points being raised. according to the brief announcement from leonard's management, he did not die a natural death, but "following a fall". one is therefore left with questions, and should they remain unanswered, closure will forever remain unreachable - and that seems unfair to those who cared for him and need a little more clarity.
AlanM wrote:
[edited for conciseness]
Like many I found the cause and effect a bit mystifying, so I did an internet search on "fatal falls in elderly".
As you might expect many articles were found, including this one: https://www.agingcare.com/articles/fall ... 149687.htm
In it the writer tells us:
Depending on how a senior lands when they fall, they could experience everything from a broken hip to a traumatic brain injury.
According to the CDC, trauma to the brain was the cause of death in 41% of fall fatalities among seniors in the year 2010.


Alan
a person who succumbs from traumatic brain injury dies a violent death, and that would contradict the management's announcement that it was a "peaceful" one.

-geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Cate » Mon Dec 26, 2016 3:22 pm

Geoffrey, like reading your notes. If you click on them it the notes expand and are shown on a black background which is easier on the eye.
I like how lines divide the sections, how questions are numbered but don't always stay in the designated space. I like how it seems to be trying to piece something together in a clinical fashion but reading it you can feel it's teeming with emotion.

~
I remember thinking similar things when somebody close to me died unexpectedly. Sometimes it feels like the world has made some kind of universal error and when there's no explanation that makes sense (at least in your own heart) it's very hard to just 'accept things'. I don't know if you'll get more concrete answers as time goes by -- I hope that you do.


(quick note about my note about Geoffrey's notes is that because the notes are posted in the members poetry/art section I took them for poetry art - art asking a question)
Last edited by Cate on Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:18 am

AlanM wrote:
>His family may not be comfortable with releasing any further details

this is a delicate matter concerning respect, not only for his family, but also for those who followed and admired him over many years. leonard thrived on questions about himself, about his life and work - it is what kept his name vibrant.

>and really it is none of our business.

not once did leonard tell anyone to mind their own business. like me, he was too gracious, and never deviated from always being utterly polite to everyone.

>I intend to continue to celebrate his life and work

bravo! leonard's ability to write came from an analytical mind, daring to probe where other people shyed away. "never lose curiosity," - said einstein.
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Geoffrey
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby Geoffrey » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:19 pm

Vicomte wrote:I agree with Geoffrey.

Alan, yes what you found is of course factual but what I think both myself and Geoffrey would like to know is the circumstances behind the fall and what was done after the fall and by who. Who wants to find out a much later date
the truth behind it all. That would only leave time and space for the conspiracy journos to offer us their stories which although probably rubbish could easily become fact to many, then try and flatten the "myths" with the truth and "it ain't gonna happen" then times that by several journos versions and you will end up never ever knowing the full honest story.
this message was good to read, vicomte, and inspired me to add the following:

it is very unusual, to say the least, for so few details to be released concerning the unnatural death of a major celebrity. there has now passed five days of silence following my querie to leonard's management, and i have to admit that i am beginning to become worried by the prolonged secrecy. i am not saying "something is rotten in the state of denmark" - to quote shakespeare - but a reluctance to give information does, unfortunately, tend to create suspicion. there has been only one official report of leonard's accident, the one written by his management dated 16th november 2016, nine full days after his death. it told us two things: a fall in the night killed him, and he died peacefully. that was all it said.

the truth is i don't feel comfortable about pursuing this. i would prefer to lead a quiet life, move on, not get involved. i keep asking myself the reason i am doing it, and the only answer i can come up with is: BECAUSE NOBODY ELSE WILL.
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Re: "come forth from the cloud of unknowing . . ."

Postby sereneava » Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:32 am

Thank you Vicomte, Cindee, Violet and especially Geoffrey for the way you are talking about this difficult subject. I think it is natural that these questions are wondered about. I have no idea what is right or wrong in this situation. I am grateful Geoffrey that you can express your questions and concerns so carefully and with regard for Leonard's loved ones. I don't know how to conclude this except to say peace to all.

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