Cohen's "The genius"--- poem analysis

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
Jen
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Post by Jen »

Wow, the ideas you have brought up are amzing, thank you so much for responding with such great interpretations!

please keep them coming! i have now seen the poem in many diffferent lights (which is how a poem should be read)

thank you again for your input!


- Jen
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linda_lakeside
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Post by linda_lakeside »

Hi All (again),

Much has happened in the last few minutes, I see.

Tchoco seems to have 'forced eelaine's hand' as it were. Eelaine has brought out the topics she was not quite willing to discuss before. I had a feeling that it would be something along these lines.

I am only going to remark on what eelaine said in one of her previous posts concerning 'if we really cared about "Truth and Fairness" we'd be looking for it, or something close.

We all have our own 'truths'. What is 'true' for me, might not be 'true' for you. The only 'universal truth' I've discovered in my lifetime, is that life is not 'fair'. It never has been, never will.

I don't think there will be much more 'discussion' I have a feeling we'll be spinning our wheels and banging our heads against the wall for some time to come. It will take some time to read the links and books that eelaine has provided for us. So, for now, I'm getting things done, but I'll be back to see how things are progressing. You've left us a lot of literature, eelaine, thank you.

Linda.
Steven
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Post by Steven »

Tchocolatl,

In terms of seduction, where someone self-effaces to satisfy another
and the other accepts it, the first diminishes in self-respect (if it was
there to begin with) and the acceptor loses respect and value for
the self-effacer (if these were ever there to begin with). You see
this seduction as taking place in the song and that "the seducer is
well aware of his power of seduction." I'd agree that much
of the mechanisms of seduction take place subconsciously, where
they do occur.

As for the bus metaphor, I understand your point, but the lyrics,
though, seem not to indicate a literal "on the road" but a use
of the words in a colloquial way as in "journey" or "trip." People
sometimes say: "I'll have a drink for the road."
Steven
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Post by Steven »

Eelaine,

Antisemetism is a fact and the biggest double standard is that of world
politics guided by oil money, fueled by hatred and jealousy of Israel.
The world doesn't mind building memorials for Jews, but historically
doesn't care much when they are eliminated. There is a law of
karma and the world has and will continue to pay a price for its
antisemetism. World politics what they are and citers of the
kind of sources that you cited being what they are, can try to
push Israel up against the wall. Ultimately, this isn't going to be doing anyone
any favors. Historically where Jews are treated kindly, blessings
flow. Where otherwise, the inverse. -- The bible says of the Jewish
people: "I'll bless those that bless you and curse those that curse
you."
eelaine
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Post by eelaine »

"I'll bless those that bless you and curse those that curse
you."
Steven,

A lot of people are saying this, I agree. The Bible says a lot of things.

-eelaine
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linda_lakeside
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Post by linda_lakeside »

Hi Jen! (way up there at the top of the page),

You should just jump into the fray! I got my 'baptism' in a thread called "Canada/US Elections". Ask me if I had fun! :D

Linda.
Tchocolatl
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Post by Tchocolatl »

Thanks Jen, for your kind comments.

Linda, maybe it is not a matter of glasses or zoom after all. Where did you see that I have "forced the hand" of somedody? Very bad comment in my regards. This reminds me of the "bad things" I was supposed to have done to Tom Sakic : that I was martyrizing him, while I was talking to the other Tom all the time. Pfff... Bad imagination you have, take care of that. I just hope Eelaine is not the kind of person to believe any "free" affirmation, moreover when it does not make any sense.

Eelaine, today I wear jeans and give a "big" 5 dollars to have the pink ribbon, I participated to the Denim Day to support the Cure Foundation for Breast Cancer. Someboby told me that this organisation was talking the lion's part of the donations, that just a tiny amount goes to the research, etc., etc. This I all know. What I also know is that tinyamount that rests, is use for fighting breast cancer.

I never believe that Jews - as well a Gentile - are without flaws of any sorts, but it rest... evolution of human kind, you know, is maybe to be aware that we are not perfect and that nobody needs to dye as a skape goat, but real solutions are existing.

Steven, if people are blessed where Jews are well "taking care of", I don't like the term, it is probably because in this case people of both "clans" are able to take care of the other "clan". It takes two to tango, on any dance you dance. For Gentile, the Jew is the other by excellence, and for the Jew the Gentile, is the other. How are we able to deal with the other, the stranger? Big question. Many good answers. Many bad also.

For the seduction, what you are saying is also true under certain conditions, but your explanation evacuates all the games, the playing just for fun. I hope you do sometimes, just play - erotically or not - for fun. I trully hope.

You seems to be so very sure to have the truth, and I find this is so heavy and right now I am too loaded for carrying this extra weight. Take care Steven, and maybe to another thread, will discuss again about this or that.

Cheers, all! ('have to run) :D
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linda_lakeside
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Post by linda_lakeside »

Hi Tchoco,

The "the force the hand" reference has/had nothing to do with any other thread or circumstance or anything. It's just an expression.

Linda.
eelaine
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Post by eelaine »

Linda,
Eelaine has brought out the topics she was not quite willing to discuss before.
Three times I brought up the article by Finkelstein... which is/was my 'thesis.' The only difference was that, after I grew exhausted and weary from 'hiding' my thesis... which was in the article... I spoon fed it. In any event, for as circular and dizzying as this has been... I am happy that you're satisfied with the explanation from me.

I hope you consider the info. and ideas expressed.

--elaine
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linda_lakeside
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Post by linda_lakeside »

Eelaine,

"Circular and dizzying". :D . In a way, that's what many of these conversations turn out to be. The students, scholars, fans and just plain old working stiffs have one thing in common and that, of course, is Leonard's work.

All the 'off-shoot' discussions that take place are just extensions of what Leonard's work is about, how we feel about it and on other days how we feel about each other. That just goes to show how deeply his work affects us. Sometimes :D we couldn't stand each other, otherwise! :D . There is so much exploration for all of us to do and I think it's cool the way we all, with differing points of view, see or find a way to meet through LC.

I don't think I ever demanded an explanation from you, it just seemed that you were 'hinting' at some things and it seemed, to me anyway, that you wanted to talk, but didn't want to talk. It doesn't matter. We all got out alive! :D

Linda.
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linda_lakeside
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Post by linda_lakeside »

PS: Naturally, I was just kidding with the 'otherwise we couldn't stand one another' phrase. Just kidding. Kidding.

Linda.
Steven
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Post by Steven »

Jen,

Thank you for having started this interesting, thought provoking thread
and for your kind words to those that have responded.
Steven
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Post by Steven »

Tchocolatl,

Yes, when people are caring of one another, and this is the dance of
their tango good things tend to flow. And yes, you raise a "Big" and
good question: "How are we able to deal with the other, the stranger?"

Nah, I don't think my explanation of seduction takes the fun out of it.
It can be a pleasant surprise for people to find themselves in the
flow of seduction and enjoying it. That the mechanisms aren't
often conscious makes the discovery and realizations somewhat
spontaneous and less contrived. Fun is good. I do have fun.
As for truth, whatever that is for me is subject to revision as
additional learnings and experiences allow. It wasn't my intention
to weigh you down, in any way. I hope whatever weight you
are carrying around is lightened. Wishing you ease of being.
Tchocolatl
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Post by Tchocolatl »

I let go on the yak-yak-yak... enough "y", "a", "k" and others had been used to say nothing or to repeat, it seems.

I'll just answer to you Steven, I did not feel that you had intention of that sort (or of any sort, indeed, but to discuss and share your (interesting) opinions and comments) this is just that I am too loaded (and probably too heavy right now, you are well aware what projection can do), this is me not you. But if you agree to do strip tease for me, to light my days, I would agree. 8) (of course this is a joke. Wink wink).

Cheers guys!
Steven
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Post by Steven »

Tchocolatl,

If all it would take to lighten your days would be that "strip tease,"
I'd almost be ready to say: "I'm Your Man." :wink:
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