Cohen's "The genius"--- poem analysis

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
eelaine
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Post by eelaine »

Tchoco and Linda,

My interest is not whether you agree with me about this poem... what it’s definitive, certain, without a doubt meaning is. Rather, I believe I made a strong case for a meaningful discussion – based on it and its language and observations, and observations outside of this poem, that beg notice... A discussion that isn’t happening.

eelaine
Steven
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Re: Cohen's "The genius"--- poem analysis

Post by Steven »

Jen,

Where a people (as in "The Genius") or a person (as in "I'm Your Man")
is so emasculated as to allow others to define them or him/her, do they
really "choose" what roles are assumed? The untold flip-side to both
works, I'd think would be a portrayal of the sorry-assed state
of affairs of the persecutors who project their own stuff onto others.
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linda_lakeside
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Post by linda_lakeside »

Hi eelaine,
eelaine wrote: You don’t get it. I don’t know if you, or any of you care about Truth and Fairness. And how it’s been eroded and hijacked. I’d like to think differently.
Why don't you think we care about 'Truth and Fairness'? Tchoco made reference to a book by Leonard "Flowers for Hitler". I said I thought the two song/poem shared a parallel theme (albeit with different imagery - very different). So, where is it said that we don't care for Truth and Fairness? Truth and Fairness in ... ?

Linda.

Tchoco - if I'm not wearing my glasses, I have trouble reading the tiny writing - I better leave a pair by the computer.
eelaine
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Post by eelaine »

Steven,

To bring up objectivity, and suggest that it’s missing; Is this persecution?

The double standard of genius... to suggest objectivity, or examination warrants this? ( you said so. )

Who/What is being persecuted? (for instance when I turn on the news) What is being projected? (Other than the only point of view)

eelaine
.
Tchocolatl
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Post by Tchocolatl »

Linda, glasses, yes, or try to zoom the text at 150% or more.

Eelaine. I don't care also if we are all agreeing or not. I am willing to discuss. I just did not want to entangle things at the point nobody can discuss anymore.

Please write what is it you want to discuss about, the subject and/or the subjects in particular, because it is not clear to me, it is too general.

Steven. You write like somebody who no nothing about seduction in the case of a person, and in the case of the people... well I find it is worst. It is like if you do not know about the fact that some people are doing war, some people are winning it, and others are losing it. Beautifully sometimes, but...

Certainly these guys in their uniforms who built concentration camps were the summum of the virility, the perfect anti-emasculated people. Nothing to be so proud about, in my eyes. Virility is not all good all over.

I think this is a mistake to think that Jews could never have done or do something "bad" (if you do not believe me, just open a Bible and you will soon think otherwise, anyway, it is full of "bad" things, they did, along with the "good" things). But this do not justify the hatred, the antisemitism, the false accusations, this is not allowing anybody o take them as skape goats for all the trouble in the world. And this nazi final solution was a complete vision of crazy people, if you ask me.

Cheers (oh... :roll: )
eelaine
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Post by eelaine »

Tchoco and Linda,

Firstly, I’m at a disadvantage with “Flowers for Hitler.” Secondly, my (subjective) thoughts are off-shoots... starting with a poem, called ‘the Genius’ and what I observe in the world. At this point, it doesn’t matter to me what Leonard meant in writing it. IF Whether or not my taking liberties to think outside of the box, is what Steven meant as projection in a context of distaste... I’m not sure. But if so, I think that’s rather lame. ( If I misunderstood you Steven, I apologize. )

Yes, we’re going around in circles. Don’t take this the wrong way... but when I said discuss, I meant it rhetorically... I have nothing against you per se.

I could not resist jumping in on this thread... in its beginning with my one little comment. For me, at the time, that was enough.

This poem... or my thoughts about it... (which are beyond the poem) go way beyond what I want to say in this forum... if this went this badly... I trust you’d hate it.... or it would be many circles spinning all over the place. There would be no point in it.

I was hinting at best (I guess) at the unpopular and politically incorrect notion that all Holocausts aren’t equal in the world view. (To which you folks keep bringing up Hitler... and... I don’t know... I just don’t know what to say...) I referenced an article by Norman Finkelstein, who wrote a book... that was an ordeal for him to get published... because people don’t like what he has to say. He is an ‘Anti-Semitic, Self-hating Jew’ whose parents survived the Holocaust... apparently “he hates everybody... even his own parents”.... he must, to dare speak against the establishment. But the issue is beyond the Holocaust.

Yet, all I keep hearing here is how deplorable Hitler was. (Yes, he was.) Even if you read the book, or an article or two... and agree that just possibly, just maybe... the Holocaust ‘remembered’ as political weapon, could have an affect on the good and decent masses; what they accept, which wars are just, etc., that Anti-Semitism itself can achieve desired results (not my idea)... It wouldn’t sum up the whole picture.

Re: Truth and Fairness... You say you do care. But I say you don’t. If you did... you’d be seeking it out, and know what’s what. (That not meant viscously – It is just my opinion.) If anything, I was hoping that you look to other points of view, etc. That's all.

eelaine
Steven
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Post by Steven »

Eelaine,

I didn't bring up objectivity and certainly Leonard Cohen's silence
(in these two works) about the position of the persecutor is
his poetic license. So, I don't understand your question: "Is this persecution?"

Is it worthy to consider the internal state of the persecutor? A
very wise man once remarked that the persecuted are well
served by asking themselves if they would rather be the
perpetrator. Aside from spiritual benefit, doing so also
affirms the more positive side of the human condition.

In "The Genius" the persecuted group is the Jewish people. In
"I'm Your Man" the persecuted person is the person willing to
accept someone else's definition of what he should be. Those
that mistreat either the group or individual are the persecutors.
To the extent that such individuals or groups consciously allow mistreatment,
they are complicit. When you watch the news: mean, unkind
acts are projections of mean, unkind states of mind. The subjective
way that you respond to the news is a projection of your own
beliefs and viewpoints.
Steven
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Post by Steven »

Eelaine,

I didn't bring up objectivity and certainly Leonard Cohen's silence
(in these two works) about the position of the persecutor is
his poetic license. So, I don't understand your question: "Is this persecution?"

Is it worthy to consider the internal state of the persecutor? A
very wise man once remarked that the persecuted are well
served by asking themselves if they would rather be the
perpetrator. Aside from spiritual benefit, doing so also
affirms the more positive side of the human condition.

In "The Genius" the persecuted group is the Jewish people. In
"I'm Your Man" the persecuted person is the person willing to
accept someone else's definition of what he should be. Those
that mistreat either the group or individual are the persecutors.
To the extent that such individuals or groups consciously allow mistreatment,
they are complicit. When you watch the news: mean, unkind
acts are projections of mean, unkind states of mind. The subjective
way that you respond to the news is a projection of your own
beliefs and viewpoints.

Moderator: This is a duplicate post. I tried to delete it, unsuccessfully.
Please delete. Thanks.
Last edited by Steven on Tue May 10, 2005 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Steven
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Post by Steven »

Tchocolatl,

You say that I "write like somebody who no nothing seduction." Okay;
you are entitled to your opinion, though I don't see what seduction
has to do with this thread.

You also say you "think it is a mistake to think that Jews could never
have done or do something "bad..." Okay, but I didn't read that
someone said that in this thread about the Jews or any other
persecuted group or person.

Cheers.
eelaine
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:26 am

Post by eelaine »

Steven,
In "The Genius" the persecuted group is the Jewish people
In your subjective view, what do you guess could be meant by ‘the Genius’?


-eelaine
.
eelaine
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2005 11:26 am

Post by eelaine »

Steven,
In "The Genius" the persecuted group is the Jewish people
In your subjective view, what do you guess could be meant by ‘the Genius’?


-eelaine
.
Tchocolatl
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Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Post by Tchocolatl »

Eelaine, you say that you are get of the box, and are wandering on scapelands that is not one of the poem, but Leonard Cohen songs and poems are doing this. They seems to be an emotional core where many different and personal ideas, emotions, etc could take as a support to be expressed.

Eelaine, if you have the impression that this goes in circle, yes, here, I am under the strong impression that you have something to say and you find it difficult to express because it is not an easy matter and until you will have said it, the discussion will be difficult, because you will focus on these notions that you hide.

I say this because many things have been said that you seem not to see. And I don't feel like repeat them ad nauseam.

Maybe if you just say it one for good, this would clear up the communication.

Yes, this is so true, there was many genocide before the holocaust, and there was many after, and the Jews were not the only one targeted by the extermination. In another thread I stressed that only them (some parts of them, anyway) had the courage to continue to talk about this while others are rushing to forget about these unpleasant events. This is why maybe, we are still talking about it in the world and not about the other silenced genocides.

Now if something in my previous posts here, leads you to think that I see Jews as perfect-without-any-flaw (i.e. that some can not play the-power-of-the-victim-game, for example, (this in their own detriment in the long run, in my opinion), I'm perplex.

Steven,

The scheme persecutor/victim that you described, and the projections that occur are real, and certainly are taking a place in "The Genius" somewhere in the History the song sings about. And yes, it takes two to tango.

This is why I repeat "I wouln't know, I'm just holding the fort" at a certain point.

But, to be as simple as possible, when you see two children quarrel and both are sometimes right and wrong, but at some point one of the two is banging the head of the other with a hammer to win his argument, maybe it is time to stop him/her, without further delay.

Now this is a non sense to think that misunderstandings and quarrels would never happen. They are part of life. What could be done, however, is to do it without blood, violence and suffering. This is possible.

As for the seduction thing.

Oh! time flies and I have to run now. I just do not have the feeling that the seducer is somebody well aware of his power of seduction in the song, he keep promises things that he can not keep, she knows it, he knows it, but lines later he sangs "If you've got to sleep a moment on the road I will steer for you"... hum... :roll: Now if a bus passes on her, who would be to be blamed for this?

HaND :D

P.S. : I made many lapsus in the last paragraph. Interesting ones, as usual, I keep them, though. I wanted to write "the seducer is well aware of his power". But in the other hand, the compulsive seducer are never sure of their power of seduction. Cheers.
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linda_lakeside
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Post by linda_lakeside »

Hi All -

Just checked my mail, and yes there is more on this topic, I see. I haven't as yet read it all, so I'll be back (to look at least, as I don't know what Tchoco's post contains).

Steven: If you ever find yourself in the position of inadvertently posting twice, you can delete your last post (as long as no one has replied). Handy button, that 'delete'!

Well, on to the rest of my mail - see you all later.

Linda.
eelaine
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Post by eelaine »

Maybe if you just say it one for good, this would clear up the communication.
Tchoco, I thought I did: “The title is its genius”

The popular attitudes that support the US/Israel agenda of today, are a Huge Double Standard, and are grossly inadequate to history and reality. The ‘Politics of Anti-Semitism*’ and the ‘Holocaust Industry’ have had much to do with fueling a one-sided agenda. The names have been changed, but this game was played once or twice before... and it’s called ‘Irony.’

“Unique suffering confers unique entitlement.”

*The Politics of Anti-Semitism, (available at http://www.counterpunch.org) edited by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St. Clair, confronts how the slur of "anti-semite" has been used to intimidate critics of Israel's abuse of Palestinians. It includes essays by Uri Avnery, Edward Said, Michael Neumann and Bill and Kathy Christison.

Holocaust Industry - http://normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=3&ar=36

‘the Catholic Church condemned anti-Zionism as a cover for anti-Semitism by means of a joint statement issued by a forum of Catholic-Jewish intellectuals.’ (Ha’aretz article of July 7, 2004)
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/449338.html


Call to the Presbyterian Church to reverse its anti-Semitic resolution on divestment
"Only the moral blindness of Jew-hatred could lead the Church to compare Israel’s multi-racial democracy to apartheid South Africa"
http://www.petitiononline.com/presby2/petition.html


From an article by a group known as “True Torah Jews” concerning Anti-Semitism:
The founder of Zionism, Theodore Herzl, recognized at the outset that the only way to “sell” the Zionist state as a refuge for persecuted Jews and encourage immigration was to assure the existence of anti-Semitism and persecution of Jewish people in other countries. Herzl stated in his diary “It is essential that the sufferings of Jews.. . become worse. . . this will assist in realization of our plans. . .I have an excellent idea. . . I shall induce anti-Semites to liquidate Jewish wealth. . . The anti-Semites will assist us thereby in that they will strengthen the persecution and oppression of Jews. The anti-Semites shall be our best friends”. (From his Diary, Part I, pp. 16)
.
Steven
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Post by Steven »

Eelaine,

The "genius" of the Jewish peope has commonly been referenced in
terms of their ability to survive despite centuries of obstacles and
oppression, their ability to produce individuals that have advanced
art, culture, science and every field of human endeavor at a rate
exhorbitantly disproportionate to their miniscule percentage of the
world's population. It seems to me that Leonard may sarcastically
have chosen these other aspects to link with genius.
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