~ Last paragraph, line 3 and 4....too close to the bone 
?~Lizzytysh
No Middleman
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Sore Loser
- Posts: 42
- Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 4:05 am
Dear Lizzytysh,
First, a clarification about the Nadel bio. It is not an "expose." It is fairly well written but the author scrupulously avoids being overtly critical of Mr. Cohen in any way. The paragraph I quoted is probably the severest observation he makes. (Nadel at least spares us the excruciatingly sycophantic tone of Prophet of the Heart.) But in a book purporting to be a life of Leonard Cohen there is not one direct quote from any of the "long-term" women. Did Nadel interview these women? If he did, didn't they have anything to say? Their silence is very peculiar.
Second, my little remark about Judgement Day was a JOKE. I was having a little fun with Cohen's metier. And mad pit bull that I am, couldn't help barking that one out.
Third, my observation about imagination and reality stands. I'll use this pedestrian analogy. A great many newspapers and magazines were sold and a lot of money was made during the '80's and '90s covering the antics of Britain's Royal Family. (I don't mean to pick on the British...Americans can substitue their own royal family...the Kennedys). Now take away the palaces, the money, the designer clothes, the vacations in exotic locales, the jets, the yachts, the good looks, the jewels, the cameras, the press, the hangers-on. Put this same family in a trailer park. Same goings-on. Same antics. Suddenly things start to look a little squalid. The high-gloss disappears. And what was fascinating and titilating in the palace is much less so in the mobile home.
Finally, about the spiritual bingeing and purging. I don't apologize for this analogy. It's a good one. (And I'm not freezing him in time...Leonard Cohen has been doing this for thirty years or more). Any hedonist, who hasn't entirely given himself over to dissipation, gets sick of the pursuit of pleasure at some point. So, it is very natural for the pendulum to swing the other way for awhile and an attempt will be made to put the body under subjection. The great attraction of Rinzai Zen Buddhism to the sensualist is the promise of elimination of desire. Plus, there is no I-Thou relationship to struggle with. The Impersonal Absolute is exactly that ...Impersonal. Ultimately, there is only the Self. The all-encompassing, all-important, glorious Self. Do you see a pattern here?
SL
P.S. "like a starving vulture, a pit-bull gone mad" beats "used his charm like a switchblade" all to pieces.
First, a clarification about the Nadel bio. It is not an "expose." It is fairly well written but the author scrupulously avoids being overtly critical of Mr. Cohen in any way. The paragraph I quoted is probably the severest observation he makes. (Nadel at least spares us the excruciatingly sycophantic tone of Prophet of the Heart.) But in a book purporting to be a life of Leonard Cohen there is not one direct quote from any of the "long-term" women. Did Nadel interview these women? If he did, didn't they have anything to say? Their silence is very peculiar.
Second, my little remark about Judgement Day was a JOKE. I was having a little fun with Cohen's metier. And mad pit bull that I am, couldn't help barking that one out.
Third, my observation about imagination and reality stands. I'll use this pedestrian analogy. A great many newspapers and magazines were sold and a lot of money was made during the '80's and '90s covering the antics of Britain's Royal Family. (I don't mean to pick on the British...Americans can substitue their own royal family...the Kennedys). Now take away the palaces, the money, the designer clothes, the vacations in exotic locales, the jets, the yachts, the good looks, the jewels, the cameras, the press, the hangers-on. Put this same family in a trailer park. Same goings-on. Same antics. Suddenly things start to look a little squalid. The high-gloss disappears. And what was fascinating and titilating in the palace is much less so in the mobile home.
Finally, about the spiritual bingeing and purging. I don't apologize for this analogy. It's a good one. (And I'm not freezing him in time...Leonard Cohen has been doing this for thirty years or more). Any hedonist, who hasn't entirely given himself over to dissipation, gets sick of the pursuit of pleasure at some point. So, it is very natural for the pendulum to swing the other way for awhile and an attempt will be made to put the body under subjection. The great attraction of Rinzai Zen Buddhism to the sensualist is the promise of elimination of desire. Plus, there is no I-Thou relationship to struggle with. The Impersonal Absolute is exactly that ...Impersonal. Ultimately, there is only the Self. The all-encompassing, all-important, glorious Self. Do you see a pattern here?
SL
P.S. "like a starving vulture, a pit-bull gone mad" beats "used his charm like a switchblade" all to pieces.
I appreciate your serious response, SL. If what you quoted is the most severe observation he makes, we're gonna need to scout around for a substitute word for sordid 
.
Sorry I didn't get the JOKE ~ took it simply as a way of expressing your feeling that he reveals too much.
I am also curious as to why none of Leonard's former women were interviewed or quoted. Were his other [male/female] associations quoted? Even so, I can't jump to the conclusion that their omission indicates anything in particular. Their silence may be, indeed, related to never having been asked. Why don't you write Ira and ask why nothing from them was in his book?
I also haven't read "Prophet of the Heart." Sooner or later, I'll catch up.
The point you make re: "royalty" 's goings-on vs. those of the "commoner." Of course, that phenomena is not unique to Leonard....and I'm not suggesting that manipulation or using are just fine with me, when it comes to him. The thrust of my point is that these aren't the way Leonard "is," even though they may be the way Leonard "was."
My sense is that you're interpreting "Impersonal" in its literal, worldly sense, when in spirituality it's more akin to "agape" love and a very good thing, something to be sought, like "principle over personality." In the end, the "Self" is not all-important, all-encompassing, and glorified, but rather eliminated, altogether, right along with ego. Likewise, "elimination of desire" goes way beyond eliminating the "pleasures" ~ elimination of desire for power, money, sex, material belongings, etc. all come under that. Not just the hedonistic aspects. Though the sensualist may end up in the practice of Buddhism, it's unfair to presume that they are there as a result of a "binge-purge" pattern.
~ Lizzytysh
P.S. Of course, I wouldn't use the phrase in regard to Leonard......
.Sorry I didn't get the JOKE ~ took it simply as a way of expressing your feeling that he reveals too much.
I am also curious as to why none of Leonard's former women were interviewed or quoted. Were his other [male/female] associations quoted? Even so, I can't jump to the conclusion that their omission indicates anything in particular. Their silence may be, indeed, related to never having been asked. Why don't you write Ira and ask why nothing from them was in his book?
I also haven't read "Prophet of the Heart." Sooner or later, I'll catch up.
The point you make re: "royalty" 's goings-on vs. those of the "commoner." Of course, that phenomena is not unique to Leonard....and I'm not suggesting that manipulation or using are just fine with me, when it comes to him. The thrust of my point is that these aren't the way Leonard "is," even though they may be the way Leonard "was."
My sense is that you're interpreting "Impersonal" in its literal, worldly sense, when in spirituality it's more akin to "agape" love and a very good thing, something to be sought, like "principle over personality." In the end, the "Self" is not all-important, all-encompassing, and glorified, but rather eliminated, altogether, right along with ego. Likewise, "elimination of desire" goes way beyond eliminating the "pleasures" ~ elimination of desire for power, money, sex, material belongings, etc. all come under that. Not just the hedonistic aspects. Though the sensualist may end up in the practice of Buddhism, it's unfair to presume that they are there as a result of a "binge-purge" pattern.
~ Lizzytysh
P.S. Of course, I wouldn't use the phrase in regard to Leonard......
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Andrew McGeever
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 10:02 pm
I have trawled through the voluminous correspondence under the heading "No Middleman", and have failed, so far, to read a single post which addresses the subject-matter......"No Middleman".
Can I make some comments about the text?
1. It is set in a now-familiar Cohen pattern of alternating iambic tetrameters and tri-meters, with an a-b-a-b rhyme sequence . Even the title is an iambic di-meter.
2. "the Western Wall"..is a weak,nebulous ending. Much stronger would be, for instance, "Berlin Wall" or "Wailing Wall", which identifies a location of conflict, both geographically and personally(?).
3. This is not a "poem" at all, but rather the first two verses of a Leonard Cohen song (which fits the tune of "Boogie Street", and others too!).
4. Question time...is this safe verse at the expense of creativity?
Yours, expecting brick-bats,
Andrew.
Can I make some comments about the text?
1. It is set in a now-familiar Cohen pattern of alternating iambic tetrameters and tri-meters, with an a-b-a-b rhyme sequence . Even the title is an iambic di-meter.
2. "the Western Wall"..is a weak,nebulous ending. Much stronger would be, for instance, "Berlin Wall" or "Wailing Wall", which identifies a location of conflict, both geographically and personally(?).
3. This is not a "poem" at all, but rather the first two verses of a Leonard Cohen song (which fits the tune of "Boogie Street", and others too!).
4. Question time...is this safe verse at the expense of creativity?
Yours, expecting brick-bats,
Andrew.
I'll trust you on your "-meter" breakdowns. Does the pattern of a poem necessarily make it "safe" or uncreative? Its content and meaning still have to hold up, regardless.
I took Western Wall to be a specific reference to the West and its eventual collapse. A couple weeks ago in the Chatroom, we discussed this poem at some length, and the poem in general we agreed was politically-oriented with regard to current world affairs. We vacillated on who was speaking to whom in the first verse....Cohen to G..d, G..d to Cohen? Is the place "Hell"? I considered coming straight here afterward to give my new interpretation of it all, given our discussion, and now wish I had, as I now can't recall all the details.
I took Western Wall to be a specific reference to the West and its eventual collapse. A couple weeks ago in the Chatroom, we discussed this poem at some length, and the poem in general we agreed was politically-oriented with regard to current world affairs. We vacillated on who was speaking to whom in the first verse....Cohen to G..d, G..d to Cohen? Is the place "Hell"? I considered coming straight here afterward to give my new interpretation of it all, given our discussion, and now wish I had, as I now can't recall all the details.
Andrew,
Here's a brickbat coming your way.
O.K. so we don't care about Leonard's crummy poem. After reading your analysis of No Middleman you obviously think it's pretty rotten too. So what's left to say?
It's been far more interesting reading the posts between Sore Loser, Kush, Linda, Janem, Gaia, and Lizzytysh.
eeey
Here's a brickbat coming your way.
O.K. so we don't care about Leonard's crummy poem. After reading your analysis of No Middleman you obviously think it's pretty rotten too. So what's left to say?
It's been far more interesting reading the posts between Sore Loser, Kush, Linda, Janem, Gaia, and Lizzytysh.
eeey
the Wall
The Western Wall is another name for the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem.
-Janem
-Janem
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Andrew McGeever
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 10:02 pm
No Middleman.
Being a reply to "eeey":
Dear "eeey",
You state, "We don't care about Leonard's crummy poem." Who are this "we"? It certainly doesn't include me. Are you refering to "Sore Loser, Kush, Linda, Janem, Gaia and Lizzytish"? You quote them as "far more interesting to read".
You also state "you obviously think it's pretty rotten too". No I don't, and at no point did I suggest that. Please read what I wrote.
You haven't addressed the point I made: I don't think this is a poem, rather the first two verses of an unfinished song. That is not to say it is "crummy" or "pretty rotten". Leonard Cohen's lyrics have been infused with a poetic quality for much/most of his songwriting. That is partly why they have stood the test of time. But songs are songs, and poetry is poetry. It just so happens that , on occasion, the border is crossed.
Leonard Cohen has crossed that border before, but not with "No Middleman".
P.S. I expected brick-bats from correspondents. To date, I've received a damp sponge.
P.P.S. The correspondence between "Sore Loser, Kush, Linda, Janem, Gaia and Lizzytish" was engaging, informative and interesting. It's the stuff of a string.
P.P.P.S. Yes, the Western Wall is the Wailing Wall.
Dear "eeey",
You state, "We don't care about Leonard's crummy poem." Who are this "we"? It certainly doesn't include me. Are you refering to "Sore Loser, Kush, Linda, Janem, Gaia and Lizzytish"? You quote them as "far more interesting to read".
You also state "you obviously think it's pretty rotten too". No I don't, and at no point did I suggest that. Please read what I wrote.
You haven't addressed the point I made: I don't think this is a poem, rather the first two verses of an unfinished song. That is not to say it is "crummy" or "pretty rotten". Leonard Cohen's lyrics have been infused with a poetic quality for much/most of his songwriting. That is partly why they have stood the test of time. But songs are songs, and poetry is poetry. It just so happens that , on occasion, the border is crossed.
Leonard Cohen has crossed that border before, but not with "No Middleman".
P.S. I expected brick-bats from correspondents. To date, I've received a damp sponge.
P.P.S. The correspondence between "Sore Loser, Kush, Linda, Janem, Gaia and Lizzytish" was engaging, informative and interesting. It's the stuff of a string.
P.P.P.S. Yes, the Western Wall is the Wailing Wall.
Being a reply to Andrew "Poetry is Poetry" McGeever:
Andrew,
O.K. here's a damp sponge coming your way.
You did use the words, "weak" "nebulous ending" didn't you? You even said it wasn't a "poem" at all. And how about your opinion that Leonard is being less than creative?
Are you having second thoughts about your post? Don't worry, Leonard doesn't read these things.
eeey
Andrew,
O.K. here's a damp sponge coming your way.
You did use the words, "weak" "nebulous ending" didn't you? You even said it wasn't a "poem" at all. And how about your opinion that Leonard is being less than creative?
Are you having second thoughts about your post? Don't worry, Leonard doesn't read these things.
eeey
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Andrew McGeever
- Posts: 905
- Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2002 10:02 pm
Dear Eeeey,
Your last post doesn't address the points I made in my first post, nevermind my second . If, according to you, "Leonard doesn't read these things" (sic), then where does that leave you? As for me, I'm not having "second thoughts"(sic). That was done before my postings on this string, and others, to which I have contributed .
Right now, I'm trying to sort out which poems I'll enter for a poetry competition: I've written so little of value this year,though three are in the process of serious editing. Reading poetry remains a passion, and a continuous learning process, but there's nothing more dangerous than writing poetry. I find it both difficult and seductive; seek criticism and approval in unequal measure, yet return to where it all began.
Yours, Andrew.
Your last post doesn't address the points I made in my first post, nevermind my second . If, according to you, "Leonard doesn't read these things" (sic), then where does that leave you? As for me, I'm not having "second thoughts"(sic). That was done before my postings on this string, and others, to which I have contributed .
Right now, I'm trying to sort out which poems I'll enter for a poetry competition: I've written so little of value this year,though three are in the process of serious editing. Reading poetry remains a passion, and a continuous learning process, but there's nothing more dangerous than writing poetry. I find it both difficult and seductive; seek criticism and approval in unequal measure, yet return to where it all began.
Yours, Andrew.
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peter danielsen
- Posts: 921
- Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 3:45 pm
Great poem
This is an honest and precise poem about the process of love from the point of view of existentialisme.
The subject of the poem maintains that even though he did not really have the strategy of looking deep in to things, love itself put him in the process. This is a process which is like a naturel law, you really cannot escape it.
The title: love puts you right where the action is, whether you like it or not. The action is never in the compromise, its on the edge. The compromise may bring peace(for a while) but then the process is over.
"wild as any freedom loving rascist"
The subject of the poem maintains that even though he did not really have the strategy of looking deep in to things, love itself put him in the process. This is a process which is like a naturel law, you really cannot escape it.
The title: love puts you right where the action is, whether you like it or not. The action is never in the compromise, its on the edge. The compromise may bring peace(for a while) but then the process is over.
"wild as any freedom loving rascist"