please help me find this poem!

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.

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Postby Tchocolatl on Mon Mar 29, 2004 4:15 pm

Hello Moonlight,


Well well well, chicken fat is very bad for the heart, eh? And overweight a car is very bad for the bearings, also.



For me, I think that he may have seen himself as ugly sometimes, when he was suffering, expressing it and feeling it as his own ugliness. Just an idea that I have (I' m still in YDrFr therapy group, so, don't worry).




For the rest, well, there is many kind of love. Erotic, ludic, friendship style love, etc.

Both men and women have a favorite style, only, men are more free to express what they are, yes, still in 2004, moreover in "those" times.

I know some women that never fall in love with men under the beauty rate of Brad Pitt, let say (pick this one or another).

That is erotic love, where beauty is the major quality of the lover, and if for some reason the beauty fade or the appeal about this particular beauty fade, love is fading as well.

This could be true love whatever people can say about it.

("I loved you for your beauty but that doesn't make a fool of me").


It could be just erotic also, yes. this is true. Thank you.


However friendship style love does not need such an amount of beauty (may I say this?) from the partner. And this is true love also.

People are different. I know this is obvious. But it seems less obvious that they can truly love differently.


Both women and men are under a kind of tyranny of beauty, only, men seem to have the right to exist out of this, while for women, this is more difficult to be recognized for something else. This is where the injustice is, to my humble point of view.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Tchocolatl
 
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Postby Zabka on Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:55 am

What is ugly? Is the term different for men and women.

Going on from Moonlights discussion about Leonards "ugliness" not doing him any harm in the romance department, it seems generally true that there are more "ugly" men with "beautiful" women than vice versa. Some people say that this is because men are superficial and women are not. I don't really agree with that.

So what is it about?

Then, external beauty doesn't always guarantee a deeper beauty, charitable nature, kind spiritedness and a moral heart and mind. And I think that's what is beautiful. A veneer of beauty over and empty spirit is pretty transparent fairly soon, even with waxing, shaving, dieting and deodorising. Maybe that's what he was on about?

WHo knows
ZZ

What we have learned is like a handful of earth. What we have yet to learn is like the whole world. (Avvaiyar)
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Postby Tchocolatl on Tue Mar 30, 2004 4:15 pm

Beauty will stay fascinating and desirable, even if the idea of it changes from time to time and from culture to culture.

I share your beliefs regarding inner and external beauty.

But for the rest, I stick to my ground : one can be loved for something else then beauty but you must have all the right to be something else.

Men had more rights then women to be loved and desired for other characteristics.

Just take the example of some famous women, they never be short of lovers even when they were not so pretty and/or getting old. They had something else that was very appealing, like for everybody, I think, but they expressed it.

Also with the institution of marriage being less important nowadays, I see more and more couples formed by a younger man and an older woman and not just the contrary. In the '50 and '60 such a couple would not be admitted so easely. Like homosexual couples.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Tchocolatl
 
Posts: 3586
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

Postby Zabka on Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:25 am

All I meant is that beauty can be another name for what you love in someone (or something I suppose). It is probably self-expression and some "other" quality than physical attractiveness (one kind of beauty), at least for enduring love.

I think we agree on the core of this discussion, but I don't see what you mean about men being rightfully loved more for other characteristics. I can't imagine loving someone just for looking pretty/handsome. And I think I would feel pretty uncomfortable about someone loving me only because they thought I was pretty/handsome.

sabes?
ZZ

What we have learned is like a handful of earth. What we have yet to learn is like the whole world. (Avvaiyar)
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Postby Tchocolatl on Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:32 am

Lizzy I just read your message. Thanks for your thanks.

but I don't see what you mean about men being rightfully loved more for other characteristics.
Zabka I'm not sure this is the place for a detailed discussion about this, I mean, I do not feel comfortable to take more space devoted to fans and Leonard Cohen for this.

If you are really interested to this debate please "privatemessage" me. But be patient for the answers, ok?.
***
"He can love the shape of human beings, the fine and twisted shapes of the heart. It is good to have among us such men, such balancing monsters of love."

Leonard Cohen
Beautiful Losers
Tchocolatl
 
Posts: 3586
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 10:07 pm

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