Book of Mercy #41-45

Debate on Leonard Cohen's poetry (and novels), both published and unpublished. Song lyrics may also be discussed here.
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #41-

Postby mat james » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:47 pm

Sue, you ask:
In what way does God's presence illuminate outrageous evil?
Who created Lucifer (shedder of Light) ?
Who created that (Satan/Shaitan) which introduced Eve and Adam to the fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" ?
Who let Satan loose on poor ol' Job ? (god said to Satan that he may do what he liked to him; kill Job's family, his animals, alienate him, make him need all sorts of anti-biotics but "you may not kill him")
Ask the poeple in the Land of Og; if you can find any survivors.

From a Biblical perspective, and that is probably the main game in this verse, I think there is plenty to back up Leonard's phrase above.

This god of these old texts is either a laissez-faire liberationist
or a careless, thoughtless, dangerous gambler and a "naughty, naughty boy". 8) :D

Apostasy is the way to go if you want to de-scramble your way through that messy business.
I set out one (dark) night "...without light or guide save that which burned in my heart..." (San Juan de la Cruz).

MatbbgmephistoJ
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #41-

Postby mat james » Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:57 am

I’m not sure I can see the addictive personality in this verse, but rather that of the bewildered soul looking for hope beyond all hope. (DB Cohen)
Is Leonard perhaps addicted to "hope" ?
????
Perhaps most of us are?
Who embraces hopelessness?
Am I just playing with words?
Is that all one can do in the end?
Just play with words.
........Is that why he surrenders ?
Does he surrender to wordlessness?

..."In the beginning was the Word"
...and before that?
...wordlessness?
.
.
.

"...at the still point of the turning world
there the dance is..." (T.S.Eliot)

Matj
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
sue7
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Re: Book of Mercy #41-

Postby sue7 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:33 am

mat james wrote:Sue, you ask:
In what way does God's presence illuminate outrageous evil?
Who created Lucifer (shedder of Light) ?
Who created that (Satan/Shaitan) which introduced Eve and Adam to the fruit of "knowledge of good and evil" ?
Who let Satan loose on poor ol' Job ? (god said to Satan that he may do what he liked to him; kill Job's family, his animals, alienate him, make him need all sorts of anti-biotics but "you may not kill him")
Ask the poeple in the Land of Og; if you can find any survivors.

From a Biblical perspective, and that is probably the main game in this verse, I think there is plenty to back up Leonard's phrase above.
Mat,
In answer to my question, you're suggesting that God is a major, or THE major, actor in this area of doing evil in the world (at least that's how I read your post), and not simply a witness or illuminator of that evil.
For me, this is the theological question that trumps all others, and is alive every day when I read the news or think about historical events of all kinds.
But I'm aware, as I'm writing this, of DB Cohen's reminder that LC is not a theologian, but a poet. And I'm wondering, since I'm kind of new at writing in this precise context, about how to stay with the text, and not spin off into theological constructs, when the text draws on, suggests, and plays with theological ideas, even if they're images rather than philosophies or intellectual constructs.
It's too late here for more...
Sue
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #41-

Postby mat james » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:53 am

Sue7,
A buddhist might say, regarding the world of the opposites, "if you have evil, then you must have good". And most people would connect with this way of thinking, but not all.
If one accept god as "the good"
and the devil as "evil"....then one illuminates the other by its very position in opposition.

But forget all that. It is old school bla bla.

The darkness of the void illuminates the stars.
The pain of a stubbed toe illuminates an easy walk.
The despair of a love lost illuminates the joy of friendship
The dark chocolate earth illuminates sundrenched opal.

...and your ideas, whatever they may be, illuminate a quiet thread!

MatbbgJ
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
Judy
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Re: Book of Mercy #41-

Postby Judy » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:21 am

:D :D :D
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mat james
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Re: Book of Mercy #41-

Postby mat james » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:10 am

everyone seems to be sleeping.
How many verses left Doron, before the exit strategy ???

mephisto
"Without light or guide, save that which burned in my heart." San Juan de la Cruz.
DBCohen
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Re: Book of Mercy #41-

Postby DBCohen » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:27 am

Mat,
I’m back home now, but still trying to figure out what’s what. I hope to introduce the next prayer soon. Five more pieces to go…
Doron

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